silver2005

If this is a B&M ,there might be a lack of track because the plant is only about half an hour/40 minutes away. I don't recall Diamondback track showing up until mid-August, and that's a mile's worth of track, which went up really quick.

I realize that, but my point still stands. I want to see where you guys think this alleged giga will go using what we already see on the ground.

For those who overlaid I305 over SOB's spot, I would ask you go back and place the lift where the footers look like it'll be and then see where it'll go. Also take into account what the terrain is like and if you're going to draw a layout, explain all the current footers.

I'd like to throw in my 2 cents (or 2 dollars worth due to the length of this post) for trying to decode this thing and put some sense back into this topic. Okay, first of all, lets not forget what this ride is replacing. A ride as big as Son of Beast coming down with the following it had (hence the sale of the SOB parts) might call for a coaster of a similar stature, and given the fact they started pretty early is an indication that this will be pretty big, which to me, rules out an Intamin Blitz or anything of that nature. Also, Kings Island needs another line chewer. I'd like to pull out physical evidence at the park for this and not go by Don's Twitter speils or anything else of that nature (including the signs on the fence, owls and scarecrows) and no looking at silly things like footers shapes or bolt patterns (all steel coaster manufactures share those things with each other in one way or another). So we have footers in a big square shaped pattern on the ground, which indicate a likely spot for a train shed. The train shed, at least how I see it, is that rectangle consisting of footers in a pattern 4 across by 3 wide. The 4 footers which outline a similar size square to the shed's would probably be the transfer track area. Next to that are what most people see in the paired footers lined up next to them. The reason I bring that up is this would be the section with the final brakes. I would like to compare those with Diamondback's for a moment. Diamondback has alternating single and double footers. This one has all double footers at the specific final brake area (and likely station) which to me, looks like it'll be for the A-frames of an inverted coaster. I'll give some people the benefit of the doubt there as the land might be where it needs double footers for track with the train above the track, I.E. a standard sit down coaster, which given what this is replacing, give the impression of a giga coaster. I don't get anyone thinking there will be the turn right next to Delirium with the lift right next to Sling Shot. The footers don't indicate a lift of any kind, and the fact there isn't a room for a lift anyhow there (yes, I'm saying lift, I don't think this won't be a launch coaster). The lift would end up going extremely close to Sling Shot and over Adventure Express' entrance or out into the Oktoberfest lake at that angle, which you couldn't put a first drop from a giga or an inverted coaster there (or for any type for that matter). I'm fairly certain the station will be in the gap between Adventure Express and Flight Deck, whereas it'll have a final turn or something coming behind Delirium. The lift would go out behind Adventure Express or somewhere into the area where Son of Beast used to be (there could be a turn before the lift, Leviathan has a turn between the station and the lift, too). Heck, with the station that high up, they could pull a Hydra and put a pre-lift inversion there. Also, to the giga speculators, I have to ask you at this point; where is the clearing outside the Son of Beast area? They've only been working in the old Son of Beast spot. Do you guys realize how much room a 300+ ft lift and drop takes, even if its a curved drop, not to mention the rest of the layout? Go take a look at any giga coaster and see the distance from the base of the lift to the bottom of the first drop, including on steeper hills like I-305 and Millennium Force. You'd have to have the bottom of the first drop WAY at the end of the old Rose Bowl section, and from there, it'd probably have to go behind X-base or behind Flight Deck (I'm not sure how much land the park owns between FD and GWL). Even a compact course like that of I-305 would take a HUGE amount of room, probably surpassing SOB's old footprint. That's just after the first drop. Giga's also average around a mile or more of track spread out over a pretty large area to burn off that speed (90+ mph). You'd probably need track all the way out by Dinosaurs Alive to accommodate such a monster. Right now, there's no extra clearing around the perimeter of SOB's old grounds. I'm seeing it that the project will be substantially smaller than what most people are expecting, at least not to the scale of a giga coaster. With an inverted coaster, you can get creative with inversions as turn-arounds that use less space than that huge hammerhead on Leviathan or the massive overbank on Millennium Force. Cobra rolls and immelmans take up much less room, plus if you want any evidence of a large compact inverted coaster from B&M, look at Pyrenees. 147 ft tall, 6 inversions, over 4,000 ft of track in a pretty tight space. I know there are other manufactures, but frankly, I look at their current products and most of them don't have things that meet something that would fit Kings Island at the current moment. I get the feeling Kings Island wants to stay away from prototypes given the trouble they've caused the park in the past. Some have new stuff that could work, like Intamin's and Vekoma's new 4 across seating, Mack starting to build bigger with new train designs, Mauer Sohne has some neat spin off's of their X-car, but most of that stuff either hasn't been tried or hasn't been used a lot, which Cedar Fair generally stays away from. Gerstlauer doesn't come to mind as most of their designs are more compact than what we're seeing at Kings Island. But even something as big as Takabisha @ Fuji Q wouldn't have the capacity Kings Island is looking for. Premier has made a comeback recently with the likes of Sky Rocket, Superman and Full Throttle, but with my thoughts that this won't be a launch coaster (Premier's bread and butter right now), I don't see them either. S&S is ruled out as aside from launch coasters and 4D's (which they layout doesn't indicate, most are clones of X2) they're really small (Steel Hawg at Indiana Beach for example) and again, are newer designs. Zamperla or Pinfari- no, just no. That leaves B&M and Intamin, which the only Intmain I see is a giga (though they do have a full circuit inverted design, but only 3 have been built, a looper like Thorpe's Colossus would be too redundant IMO with Vortex doing its thing) and with my thoughts on the lack of clearing, I'm ruling it out. With that said, I don't see this as a prototype coaster in any way, shape, or form. So let's narrow down B&M types. I'll rule out flyer and sit down looper since Kings Island has both. Stand ups are a REALLY dead type, so that's out. I'm going to trust in Ouimet's words in his interview on Gatekeeper's opening day and rule out wing coaster. I'm not convinced with the lack of clearing so I'm ruling out giga. That leaves inverted, floorless and dive coasters. I'm ruling out dive coaster as the footers in the area behind Sling Shot looks too compact for a 8-10 wide car to maneuver through, plus the elevation changes concern me as dive coasters run out of momentum quick, so I tend not to lean on dive coaster. I think floorless is a different enough experience from Vortex to work. Being exposed like that above the track compared to Vortex's tight confines would be a pretty unique experience. Kings Island is also one of the only park's of its size without a full circuit inverted coaster (which I'm surprised KI didn't end up with a Vekoma SLC instead of Invertigo), which I keep that option open as well.

OzIris would like to disagree with you on the shapes and the number of bolts.

Snappy transitions and turns not banked as much are two different things. You could use the same argument on a lot of wooden coasters out there. Adventure Express' transitions aren't all that bad compared to Backlot because it doesn't have to twist as far (less of an angle differentiation to rotate), and because the turns aren't banked as much, you do get the slamming into the side. If AE were banked more, it would probably require OTSR's or as you said, leg restraints. You can control your upper body enough to get by with the lap bars only on Adventure Express. Arrow sit down car wheels also have substantial gaps between wheels which let it shimmy more than a B&M, Intamin or Premier. Also realize Ron Toomer's technology at his disposal during his era is probably leagues beneath what they had for Backlot and Flight of Fear, not to mention the man designed rides with a coat hanger.

If OTSR's are mainly to prevent the upper body from moving too much and Premier designed their foot braces to replace those bars, then I'd say a big reason is for those snappy transitions throughout the ride, mainly the banking from the launch to the helix and the s-curve sections; the police scene before the overbank, the curves before the dive into the subway stairs, and the trick track in the tunnel. It shares that trait with Flight of Fear in spades. Having a solid footing makes it easier for one to control the upper body. That's probably a reason why Backlot is rated at the highest thrill level on the park's scale.

Is there something involving Xavier University going on at Kings Island? I'm pretty sure that's their mascot costume.

If I were to go by physical evidence I see, I tend to see more people backing away from going up the Eiffel Tower than people wavering from the queue of Drop Tower. Sure its probably a small group sample; just telling it how I see it.

^Those went to Heide Park's wing coaster for 2014.

I would take about any job at KI over two particular places in the park to work- the Reds HOF Grille (at least back when it was WINGS) and Festhaus, especially closing them. Not only were they the two most popular eateries in the park, but both required extensive amounts of time after the park was closed to tidy up for the next day. I remember having to close WINGS on a weekday (10 pm closing) and not getting out of the park until about 12:30-1 am. Also, I must tip my hat to those working security and those who are life guards at Kings Island, both of which are jobs I probably would avoid myself considering all the potential stuff both jobs might have to deal with. I also try and have good fun with ride ops with all the stuff they go through as well, plus the fact that we as guests couldn't enjoy our favorite rides without them. I won't go into how, but I've had experiences with the group who runs first aid and they do a wonderful job as well.

You guys do realize if parks need room, they'll make room, right?

Because...you know...300 ft drops at near vertical angles at 90+ mph are SO family friendly. And btw, giga's have high g forces as well. Just sayin'.

Can we just agree that people like Intamin and B&M and be done with it, at least on this thread? Its annoying reading the same conversation brought up multiple times. You guys can always start another thread on the B&M and Intamin debate and leave this thread for, well, decoding.

Uh..have guys seen how much room Montu, Alpengiest and Katun take up?

I just got back from the Balloon Glow at Coney Island, and I must say, it was a tremendous experience for me as a musician. It was a real treat for me to have played there, in a jazz band no less, much like Moonlite Gardens once brought in those many years ago. I know we played across from it in the gazebo, but I still count it as having played there. We pulled out tunes like In The Mood, American Patrol, and Tequila and it went extremely well. Mark that as another famous venue I've played, with a list including Madison Square Gardens, the Superdome, and Ohio Stadium.

Apparently, our band will be trading tunes with the Anderson Township Symphony Orchestra. Should be some good live music for the event. We'll be at the gazebo, plus we have a singer. There is also the possibility we may have a Dixieland Band with us as well.

OzIris doesn't have that pre-drop dip either. http://rcdb.com/9675.htm?p=36614

Maverick never held any records except to pad CP's coaster count record at the time. The ride never held any of the records you're bringing up.

I would like to make a request for people taking pictures. If you can from the ground, try to line up a shot straight on with the footers for the alleged station and brakes to see what lies in a straight line from said footers. I'd like to see how close rides like Adventure Express, Flight of Fear, and Firehawk come if there is a lift straight out from that point.

^I wonder what his definition of 'great shape' is....

Actually...a coaster with 8 inversions would be the most of any in North America. I could also see this going for longest and/or tallest/fastest as well in the full circuit category given the amount of land to work with. The likes of Alpengeist, Montu and Katun sprawl out over a pretty large area and KI has some interesting terrain to work with in that area. If we're still talking giga, which I won't completely dismiss, it would probably go behind X-base with a turn around somewhere behind Dinosaur's Alive, though they'd probably have to move the fireworks launch area in that case. It would certainly interact with X-base in some form given how this looks to be angled. I don't think it would pull a Leviathan and interact with the midways as there looks to be an awful lot of congestion if it turns towards Coney Mall or Oktoberfest. I know the notion that'd if they would find ways to make the room for it, but frankly, I don't see the park doing that. Just a few guesses.

I think it's pretty clear how the park is going to stick by it's timeline to open in May 2014. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWs3PlIrRCg

I am just saying that based on CF's pattern since they started installing hypers in 08. CP has a giga, KD giga, CW giga, KI's turn next year would make sense. Just looking at the amount of land that is clear, the ride it is replacing, and the natural progression of things makes me believe that it will be a giga and not a dated invert. And I will rebut that by saying that the footers don't give that sort of evidence to me. The paired sets of footers look like that of an inverted coaster's a-frames which support the brake runs and stations of every one of their type. Also, it is your opinion that they are dated. They only reason they aren't built a lot any more is because most major parks have a full circuit inverted coaster already, B&M or otherwise. I think an inverted coaster would be a great addition to the park as much as a giga would be, and as someone who enjoys B&M inverts, that would be awesome in my eyes. Also, the only reason that much land was cleared is because that was the land SOB inhabited. Remember, SOB was over 7,000 ft long. They wouldn't have just taken down specific sections and leave up the rest. When you take down a ride, you take down the whole thing. They haven't cleared any tree's along the perimeter where SOB's rose bowl used to be yet, which also indicates to me that the project is smaller than what most are guessing.

Some of you on the whole "why people think this is better than that?" need a little psychology 101. All people tend to view the world differently when it comes to feeling forces on different rides and, in relevance to this discussion, viewing which manufactures are 'better'. Why can't some of you just accept that people like a manufacture you happen to not like? People are allowed to have different view points. People's nervous systems are wired differently, even down to how we perceive touch and tolerances to different forces, not unlike what you get on amusement park rides. For example, I find B&M's to be quite forceful. All the ones I've been on I've either had near grey outs or even black outs (on Six Flags Great Adventure's Batman and Raptor). I say Diamondback is a fantastic ride, my favorite steel coaster even over Millennium Force and Maverick. That's not saying I don't like Intamins, which I do, but come on, lighten up and allow people to speak their minds.