When do you think Kings Island will receive a Giga?

[Klabergian Empire]

I personally think it would make much more sense to add a Giga in 2022, the parks 50th anniversary.

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

2 minutes ago, Klabergian Empire said:

I personally think it would make much more sense to add a Giga in 2022, the parks 50th anniversary.

Parks very rarely celebrate anniversaries with coasters. For example: KI 40th: No coaster, KD 40th: No coaster. 

[Benjamin22]

I’d say 2020 but considering CedarFairs recent attendance decline a 30 million dollar roller coaster might not be something they opt for.

[Klabergian Empire]

15 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

Parks very rarely celebrate anniversaries with coasters. For example: KI 40th: No coaster, KD 40th: No coaster. 

True, true. But I think that a Giga would be a fine way to celebrate 50 years. 50 years is a milestone in a business.

[Creed Bratton]

21 minutes ago, Ben43065 said:

I’d say 2020 but considering CedarFairs recent attendance decline a 30 million dollar roller coaster might not be something they opt for.

A way to boost attendance would be to add a $30 mil coaster. Opting to not do anything big wouldn't draw folks in to boost the attendance.

[Benjamin22]

56 minutes ago, chugh43 said:

A way to boost attendance would be to add a $30 mil coaster. Opting to not do anything big wouldn't draw folks in to boost the attendance.

True but if They were to spend that 30 million dollars else where it could result in a larger  return on investment compared to investing that at Kings Island. There’s no denying a new giga would increase the attendance but the question CedarFair is asking is if that 30 million dollars will be better spent else where 

[Creed Bratton]

3 minutes ago, Ben43065 said:

True but if They were to spend that 30 million dollars else where it could result in a larger  return on investment compared to investing that at Kings Island. There’s no denying a new giga would increase the attendance but the question CedarFair is asking is if that 30 million dollars will be better spent else where 

Where would you suggest they spend $30 mil in one year to boost attendance and that would sustain attendance for that year and beyond? 

I'm sure that if $30 mil was given for a project, the contract has already been signed and the $ has already been allocated....it's not as if they would cancel a project at this time because attendance is dipping. They would be doing everything they could to market the project to ensure folks come out to experience it. 

[BeeastFarmer]

 Interesting discussion.  Something I have always wondered--When a park builds a massive new attraction, does it pay for it "up front" or is it ammortized over a period of years, going to longer debt?  

[Benjamin22]

31 minutes ago, chugh43 said:

Where would you suggest they spend $30 mil in one year to boost attendance and that would sustain attendance for that year and beyond? 

I'm sure that if $30 mil was given for a project, the contract has already been signed and the $ has already been allocated....it's not as if they would cancel a project at this time because attendance is dipping. They would be doing everything they could to market the project to ensure folks come out to experience it. 

From what I understand CedarFair previously stated they planned on investing a large portion of money into Cedar Point, Carowinds, Knotts & CGA. I still think it’s likely KI will get a giga in 2020, guess we’ll be able to make a better judgment on how likely it is based off of Wednesday earning report  

[Creed Bratton]

50 minutes ago, jtro223 said:

 Interesting discussion.  Something I have always wondered--When a park builds a massive new attraction, does it pay for it "up front" or is it ammortized over a period of years, going to longer debt?  

I'd guess they likely pay a consulting fee, a design fee, construction fee, etc. I'm sure they put a deposit down on a ride...and as work is completed they pay for what's necessary at that point. I can almost bet they allocate $$ toward a project to be paid out. I highly doubt that they'd pay for everything fully upfront as there could be issues with construction, with the design, etc. i.e. Lightning Rod at Dollywood. 

26 minutes ago, Ben43065 said:

From what I understand CedarFair previously stated they planned on investing a large portion of money into Cedar Point, Carowinds, Knotts & CGA. I still think it’s likely KI will get a giga in 2020, guess we’ll be able to make a better judgment on how likely it is based off of Wednesday earning report  

Can you post a link to where this information is from? Carowinds has publicly been known to be receiving investment, especially when Fury 325 came in. CGA has been public as Cedar Fair has shown the master plan...Cedar Point is kind of obvious, as the flag ship park, but nothing has been specifically said that I can find they are planning on investing a large portion of money into that park. Nor am I seeing any information about Knotts. 

While they may be investing in those parks....they still invest in other parks. It's not out of the question or realm of possibilities for them to add rides and to invest in other parks than those 4 you specifically mentioned.  For example, for 2019 Carowinds is opening Copperhead Strike and retheming an area of the park....at the same time, Canada's Wonderland is adding Yukon Striker (which is likely a $25-30mil investment) and they are investing in Frontier Canada which is also not a cheap investment. 

I don't believe Cedar Fair would not highly invest in a park that is not listed from what they may have said in a report. 

Again, if KI is going to get a giga or a new coaster in 2020, it's already in motion....they aren't just going to stop it because the attendance in 2018 dipped a little bit.  There is no need to see the likely hood based off of the earning report. 
 

[Benjamin22]

https://www.toledoblade.com/business/2018/05/06/Dealing-in-the-thrill-Cedar-Fair-CEO-excited-about-Point-s-future.html toward the bottom it states they plan to look into growth opportunities at the 4 previously mentioned parks. 

[CoastersRZ]

But looking into growth opportunities at those parks does not mean that they will not be investing in the other parks in the chain.  Carowinds, as can be seen with all the investment of late, and the new hotel they are building will bring in more revenue, especially with Winterfest.  Keep in mind that a hotel allows Cedar Fair to capture money that they consider to be "out of park revenue".  That can help fuel growth.  Not everything has to be park related to fuel growth.  Look at the sports park they built in Sandusky.

[Benjamin22]

1 minute ago, CoastersRZ said:

But looking into growth opportunities at those parks does not mean that they will not be investing in the other parks in the chain.  Carowinds, as can be seen with all the investment of late, and the new hotel they are building will bring in more revenue, especially with Winterfest.  Keep in mind that a hotel allows Cedar Fair to capture money that they consider to be "out of park revenue".  That can help fuel growth.  Not everything has to be park related to fuel growth.  Look at the sports park they built in Sandusky.

Of course they’d keep investing in their main parks but my whole point is that the 30 million dollars it takes to build a giga coaster could be better spent else were. 

[CoastersRZ]

It might or it might not.  I am sure that they know what they are doing with their capital expenditures budget. And they likely are trying to maximize the return on their investment.  After all, they are a publicly traded partnership, so they do have to report to their unit holders, who expect to see their cash distribution continue to rise.

I think we can agree that Cedar Fair has done wonderful things to the infrastructure of Kings Island.  From things like installing brick pavers, to the new parking tolls, they have really been taking care of the park as a whole, and not just slapping paint on buildings that are falling apart.

[Creed Bratton]

 

36 minutes ago, Ben43065 said:

Of course they’d keep investing in their main parks but my whole point is that the 30 million dollars it takes to build a giga coaster could be better spent else were. 

 Yet you didn’t answer my question of where they should spend the $ and kept insisting they’d only invest in those parks. 

[Benjamin22]

6 minutes ago, chugh43 said:

 

 Yet you didn’t answer my question of where they should spend the $ and kept insisting they’d only invest in those parks. 

I haven’t insisted anything I’ve just stated the fact that Zimmerman previously stated the company looked to make larger investments into 4 particular parks. If it were up to me I’d spend invest the money into Kings Island and a few other parks in the chain that continue to be neglected.  

[CoastersRZ]

There is a reason that a park like Michigan`s Adventure hasn`t seen any flashy big new B&M coasters installed.  It is because with relatively little investment, people (especially the locals), keep coming to this park and spending money there.  Why spend $5 million to make $10 million, when you can spend $100,000 to make $10 million?  I know those are generalized numbers, but that is the philosophy that Cedar Fair has used with Michigan`s Adventure.  The former scenario makes $2 for every $1 invested, while the latter makes $10 for every $1 invested.  If I was investing money, I would certainly want the one that nets me $10 for every dollar I invest.

[Creed Bratton]

5 hours ago, Ben43065 said:

 If it were up to me I’d spend invest the money into Kings Island and a few other parks in the chain that continue to be neglected.  

Just because one park gets a big sum of money for a new ride, doesn't mean other parks don't get money. 

[Benjamin22]

59 minutes ago, CoastersRZ said:

There is a reason that a park like Michigan`s Adventure hasn`t seen any flashy big new B&M coasters installed.  It is because with relatively little investment, people (especially the locals), keep coming to this park and spending money there.  Why spend $5 million to make $10 million, when you can spend $100,000 to make $10 million?  I know those are generalized numbers, but that is the philosophy that Cedar Fair has used with Michigan`s Adventure.  The former scenario makes $2 for every $1 invested, while the latter makes $10 for every $1 invested.  If I was investing money, I would certainly want the one that nets me $10 for every dollar I invest.

Yeah, that’s why I made the argument CedarFair would maybe want to invest 30 million dollars at another park rather then Kings Island.

54 minutes ago, chugh43 said:

Just because one park gets a big sum of money for a new ride, doesn't mean other parks don't get money. 

Yeah but parks like KD & Dorney really don’t receive any major new rollercoasters while parks like CP get multimillion dollar investments year of year, of course they get more return on investment at Cedar Point but it’s some what sad they let some of their parks become stagnant.

[Creed Bratton]

1 minute ago, Ben43065 said:

Yeah but parks like KD & Dorney really don’t receive any major new rollercoasters while parks like CP get multimillion dollar investments year of year, of course they get more return on investment at Cedar Point but it’s some what sad they let some of their parks become stagnant.

Again, just because one park gets a massive amount of money doesn't mean that other parks don't get money. KD has been invested in, just because they haven't gotten any new major roller coasters doesn't mean that Cedar Fair is investing in it. Same with Dorney....the may not be getting new coasters, but money is being put into the park. 

I know this may be a surprise but Cedar Fair doesn't have anything out there that says their capital improvement budgets must include coasters because enthusiasts think that they know how to run their business better than they can.

[Benjamin22]

13 minutes ago, chugh43 said:

Again, just because one park gets a massive amount of money doesn't mean that other parks don't get money. KD has been invested in, just because they haven't gotten any new major roller coasters doesn't mean that Cedar Fair is investing in it. Same with Dorney....the may not be getting new coasters, but money is being put into the park. 

I know this may be a surprise but Cedar Fair doesn't have anything out there that says their capital improvement budgets must include coasters because enthusiasts think that they know how to run their business better than they can.

I didn’t say I could run it better then they could I’m just saying Cedar Fair is neglecting some of their parks, Dorney has gotten 4 small rides over the course of 5 years while parks like Cedar Point in that span of time got 3 major rollercoasters + a major water park investment. 

[Creed Bratton]

1 minute ago, Ben43065 said:

I didn’t say I could run it better then they could I’m just saying Cedar Fair is neglecting some of their parks, if adding 4 small rides over the course of 5 years while parks like Cedar Point in that span of time got 3 major rollercoasters + a major water park investment. 

You literally are insinuating that they are neglecting their parks when that couldn't be further from the truth. You are posting as if you know what they should do vs what they are doing. 

KD literally got I-305 and folks didn't really show up for it. Not every park is meant to have the same amount of coasters, the same style of coasters, etc. An investment is an investment so you cannot say they are neglecting a park because they aren't adding what you think they should add.

[silver2005]

I've been to Michigan's Adventure.  Its a fine park for what it is and I'd love to return.  But Muskegon sure ain't a tourist-y type town that would benefit that much in CF investing in MIA.  There's next to zilch to do around that area of Michigan, at least compared to their more prosperous parks and their respective markets and demographic pulls. 

Dorney is a very niche park.  Its in such a saturated market (its less than 2 hours from 4-5 other parks of various sizes and means of their own self investing) that they have to be extra careful on what and when to add things because HP and SFGAdv definitely have more of the area's attention over Dorney.  The reason they have rides like their B&M's and Steel Force is they were before CF added the Paramount parks and had different important areas to invest in at the time.  Same goes with WoF and Valleyfair (the later being in the middle of Minnesota with a short season to work with and a famous, GIANT, indoor amusement park not too far).  

That script happened with the Parmaount parks investments as well.  Viacom only owned the 5 parks, so they had to go pretty heavy on all of them, though, it was obvious that KI, CW, and Carowinds were the more favored of those parks.  KD still got good things due to it still being bigger than Great America, which was probably the lesser of the 5 parks (though they did get Stealth however short lived it was, and that was a HUGE capital investment with how much development that ride had, probably Paramount's biggest in their entire tenure).  Switch to CF, and KI, CW and Carowinds are getting a lot of love (which CF had to reallocate attention from other parks that used to have more focus such as Dorney and Wof) and KD and CGA aren't as heavy in the investments, though, a lot of with CGA was with the land agreements which seemed to have panned out and they're now showing a little more focus there.  KD is in the same predicament as Dorney IMO with such a heavy player in Busch Gardens right down the road.  

[Honorarius]

I'm throwing my hat into the 2020 pile... I've got a June 2020 visit planned either way...

[SonofBaconator]

I think there's a duration of time after a new ride debuts where people want something new. I'd say with a park like KI, that duration is 3 years. In my opinion, the 3 year formula works perfectly, take the gap between Banshee and Mystic Timbers.

2014- Banshee's inaugural season

2015- Banshee's second season

2016- Prep for new attraction

2017- Mystic Timbers inagural season

If you apply that to 2020 you get this

2017- Mystic Timbers inaugural season

2018- Mystic Timbers second season

2019- Prep for new attraction

2020- Giga

It takes about 3 years to plan a coaster according to Greg Scheid and I think we'll continue to see this formula.

[fyrfyter]

I think there's a duration of time after a new ride debuts where people want something new. I'd say with a park like KI, that duration is 3 years. In my opinion, the 3 year formula works perfectly, take the gap between Banshee and Mystic Timbers.
2014- Banshee's inaugural season
2015- Banshee's second season
2016- Prep for new attraction
2017- Mystic Timbers inagural season
If you apply that to 2020 you get this
2017- Mystic Timbers inaugural season
2018- Mystic Timbers second season
2019- Prep for new attraction
2020- Giga
It takes about 3 years to plan a coaster according to Greg Scheid and I think we'll continue to see this formula.

I can’t see those low percentage drops being more than the ebb and flow of the business. If it was something like a 5-10% drop, then that might be indicative or a larger problem.

Let’s also note that when the economy was down, people elected to stay closer to home which provided KI with gains. When the economy is good, people have extra money and travel further for entertainment and vacations.

I just don’t see a big swing here. Some years are better than others, especially when new rides and attractions are added and for a season or two after.

They may not be spending $30M on KI for 2019, but based upon a new attraction and the redoing of IS, I’m betting they’re easily spending $5M on improvements. The IS reconstruction can’t be cheap, especially with the fountain improvements.

On the financial reports, the listing of improving those parks doesn’t give a timeline. That could be for the next year or the next ten. We really don’t know.

[sixohdieselrage]

58 minutes ago, fyrfyter said:

They may not be spending $30M on KI for 2019, but based upon a new attraction and the redoing of IS, I’m betting they’re easily spending $5M on improvements. 

 

Which I would take over a new rollercoaster any day, considering IS/the ET is the biggest focal point at KI.

[fyrfyter]

Which I would take over a new rollercoaster any day, considering IS/the ET is the biggest focal point at KI.

I don’t think it has to deal with being the focal point at all. Yes, lots of pictures at this point, but that isn’t why it needs to be impressive.

It’s the first thing you see when you enter the park. It needs to be impressive from the appearance of street through a small town, to the fresh water of the fountains to the grandeur of the Eiffel Tower.

There’s a reason Disney designs their parks this way at the entry and why a similar design works with many other amusement parks across the nation.

A refresh once in a while is fine, but it isn’t something alone that will draw the guests in. There has to be more than that, including rides, entertainment, experiences, food and the willingness to work on all these different items at the same time to come up with the best guest experience a park can offer.

[sixohdieselrage]

I think you missed my point. 

I was just saying that I would rather them clean up certain areas of the park/minor stuff, than invest several million into one ride. 

[Klabergian Empire]

12 hours ago, sixohdieselrage said:

I think you missed my point. 

I was just saying that I would rather them clean up certain areas of the park/minor stuff, than invest several million into one ride. 

I agree with you. Atmosphere is everything.