Discussing Land and Space in and around Vortex

[SonofBaconator]

35 minutes ago, SOBwasaSOB said:

I am not trying to be a contrarian and I have mad love for my home park, but what unique coaster elements does KI have?

Not just elements but stuff to set KI apart:

Diamondback got a splashdown. 

Banshee featured new trains, no pre-drop, a dive loop (usually parks opt for an immediate immelman), better theming (the scream at the drop for example) and a station without a drop floor

Mystic Timbers was themed extremely well- the que, the shed, its own IMAScore, etc

Orion was also themed very well- it brought in all the A72 theming, has IMAScore, has its own preshow building, and a stellar lighting package

There's just a lot of extra character and thought added into KI's rides that I don't think a lot of people notice. Its almost like they give their rides personality.

[Skibum]

8 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

Not just elements but stuff to set KI apart:

Diamondback got a splashdown. 

Banshee featured new trains, no pre-drop, a dive loop (usually parks opt for an immediate immelman), better theming (the scream at the drop for example) and a station without a drop floor

Mystic Timbers was themed extremely well- the que, the shed, its own IMAScore, etc

Orion was also themed very well- it brought in all the A72 theming, has IMAScore, has its own preshow building, and a stellar lighting package

There's just a lot of extra character and thought added into KI's rides that I don't think a lot of people notice. Its almost like they give their rides personality.

Kings Island also utilizes the park's terrain really well.  Obviously, The Beast comes to mind but Banshee uses the terrain when it drops out of the first heartline roll.  Those aren't elements but they also give the rides some different experiences.  

[BeastForever]

14 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

Banshee featured new trains, no pre-drop, a dive loop (usually parks opt for an immediate immelman), better theming (the scream at the drop for example) and a station without a drop floor

Adding to this, its pretzel knot is currently the only example of such in the world (the only other instance of this element - Moonsault Scramble at Nagashima Spaland). Its also the only B&M invert with an in-line twist.

And on the topic of terrain, it manages to be the fastest B&M and gravity-powered invert despite not being the tallest.

[coaster sally]

3 hours ago, BeastForever said:

Adding to this, its pretzel knot is currently the only example of such in the world (the only other instance of this element - Moonsault Scramble at Nagashima Spaland). Its also the only B&M invert with an in-line twist.

And on the topic of terrain, it manages to be the fastest B&M and gravity-powered invert despite not being the tallest.

Well b&m had been doing inverts for over 20 years and ki was one of the last parks to get one.  They were bound to come up with something new....

[RayFields]

They need to add this new S&S Axis free spin to the old Vortex area. It's like the complete perfected evolution of the original free swinging Arrow Bat design. Riders also say it's very comfortable (unlike the regular S&S free spins) and it would give a different ride each time similar to X2...Be cool if they paid homage to Vortex by painting the ride with the same colors.....Be perfect in that spot

 

 

 

 

 

[SOBwasaSOB]

While that is not what I hope for, that would be a truly unique and novel addition and I would not be disappointed.  I (selfishly)  want to see KI take risks like they use to and push boundaries.  I know why they don't, they can get roi on safe investments so there isn't a need for risks.  That said, it wluld be nice to not have the most docile version of whatever ride we get next.  In all fairness, Banshee did surprise me with it's forcefullness and I think its a very good invert.

[RayFields]

I don't think it'd be a risk as long as S&S has all the kinks worked out. It would probably cost quite a bit less than a B&M Dive or Winged Coaster and would have a lot more character and would be appreciated by Enthusiasts and Casuals alike....Doesn't look crazy intense it just looks like pure fun.

[SonofBaconator]

31 minutes ago, SOBwasaSOB said:

I (selfishly)  want to see KI take risks like they use to and push boundaries.  I know why they don't, they can get roi on safe investments so there isn't a need for risks. 

You can thank Son of Beast for that. KI already pulls in over 3 million people attendance wise so logically there's no reason to give us a ride that pushes boundaries like Steel Vengeance, Pantheon, etc right away. Granted while those styled coasters could come to the park someday, we don't necessarily have to be the 1st to do it. Cedar Point, Canada's Wonderland, and Carowinds all have been getting record breakers recently. They want these parks to have high attendance numbers so they're willing to risk more (to a degree.) Cedar Fair realised that they don't need to give KI anything game changing in order to keep their 3 million + annual visitors happy. If anything, taking a risk might actually hurt the park's attendance. Imagine if we got a ride like Pantheon and the rapid switch track was having issues... that's a new ride that has to go down for maintenance and after a while the GP start to notice. That's a huge reason why we haven't gotten anything game changing since Son of Beast. Experimental rides have never boded well for us as a park (look at the original Bat). I think for the most part people are just happy with safe and normal. I'd love to have something new and creative but the problem with acquiring a prototype is that your park becomes the guinea pig. Heck look at the issues Cedar Point ran into with Steel Vengeance just a few days after opening it. 

In a world where everyone's craving the newest and most innovative, I'm perfectly happy with the path we're currently going down.

[SOBwasaSOB]

Every point you made is valid and completely correct.  Unfortunately it does not change my desires haha.  Ill just settle for someone different that B&M coming next.  I know I am spoiled with the coasters I have around me but CP is about 3hrs from me and I just wish KI had coasters to match the intensity the top tier rides at CP bring to the table.  All just wishful thinking, I am very thankful that I live close to a high caliber park like KI.  I will just be happy if landscaping becomes a priority again.  Trees, flowers, and ponds would be much welcomed, cheap, and enjoyable to everyone.  Whatever ride comes next I am sure will be fun, but I am also sure it won't be what I want.  That's ok though, most people do not want what I want and it is a business.

[IndyGuy4KI]

3 minutes ago, SOBwasaSOB said:

I will just be happy if landscaping becomes a priority again.  Trees, flowers, and ponds would be much welcomed, cheap, and enjoyable to everyone.

Don't forget to ride the Autos. It seems they checked off most of your desires there!

[SOBwasaSOB]

1 minute ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

Don't forget to ride the Autos. It seems they checked off most of your desires there!

They certainly did! Id also be thrilled with a KCKC comeback.  

[SonofBaconator]

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think the ROI would be there if we got a game changer. We're not set up as a destination park so I'm not sure getting something on the level of say Steel Vengeance would help us. Like I said earlier, Carowinds got blessed with Fury 325 because Cedar Fair wanted to build that park up more. Unless metro areas such as Cincy, Dayton, Columbus, Indy, Louisville, or Lexington get a sudden increase in population I don't think Cedar Fair feels the need to stretch super far with us.

[RayFields]

KI is in very good shape compared to most parks, they wouldn't need to add another major attraction for another 5 years or so but they probably will before that time anyway...would like to see them add some low-mid intensity rides like the old Flying Eagles, the drunken barrels, etc. and as stated work on landscaping, adding flowers, trees etc.

I don't think this S&S would be nearly as risky a prototype as The Bat what with all the advancements in coaster engineering/technology over the last 40 years, From listening to the S&S rep from the 2nd video above it seems as if they are quite enthusiastic and serious about moving forward with this model. and are well on their way to having it worked out

[coaster sally]

12 minutes ago, RayFields said:

KI is in very good shape compared to most parks, they wouldn't need to add another major attraction for another 5 years or so but they probably will before that time anyway...would like to see them add some low-mid intensity rides like the old Flying Eagles, the drunken barrels, etc. and as stated work on landscaping, adding flowers, trees etc.

I don't think this S&S would be nearly as risky a prototype as The Bat what with all the advancements in coaster engineering/technology over the last 40 years, From listening to the S&S rep from the 2nd video above it seems as if they are quite enthusiastic and serious about moving forward with this model. and are well on their way to having it worked out

Anything from s&s is risky.  Let's be real.  Even the 4d free spins have downtime.  Steel curtain not reopening this year, gale force having to be redone, ring racer barely ever operated, some recent coasters in China with loads of downtime, etc.  If its an s&s I would tolerate a 4d like X, dinoconda, etc.

[RayFields]

15 hours ago, coaster sally said:

Anything from s&s is risky.  Let's be real.  Even the 4d free spins have downtime.  Steel curtain not reopening this year, gale force having to be redone, ring racer barely ever operated, some recent coasters in China with loads of downtime, etc.  If its an s&s I would tolerate a 4d like X, dinoconda, etc.

Those 4d's are great and I'm sure no one would complain at having one but this Axis concept is their evolution of the original 4d coasters. Looks to be much more comfortable and less abruptly jerky than the standard 4d rides

From the S&S site (with a lot of over the top marketing intertwined)

"S&S has started a revolution! We have re-imagined roller coaster dynamics by taking our patented and proven 4D rotating vehicle technology and turned it on a new AXIS. The new AXIS roller coaster delivers deliberate and fluid movements that give the rider a feeling of flying unlike any other ride. This coaster redefines track elements that cannot be replicated by any other ride and creates a highly marketable attraction that will have your gates booming!  Whether you want a high-thrill experience or a family-friendly coaster, AXIS will be the ride your guests want to ride time and time again. Let your customers in on the roller coaster revolution by letting them flip, fly and soar on AXIS!"

 

At any rate I wouldn't want to see a B&M dive or winged coaster on The Vortex plot because these or any other B&M models would likely only be the 4th best B&M in the park (I think the 3 best B&M models are already there)  This S&S model conversely would be on the same level as the big 5 KI coasters giving you 6 very top tier coasters. Then later on you add a RMC that snakes through the woods like Outlaw Run or Lightning Rod and well.........Greetings and Salutations

[coaster sally]

5 minutes ago, RayFields said:

At any rate I wouldn't want to see a B&M dive or winged coaster on The Vortex plot because these or any other B&M models would likely only be the 4th best B&M in the park (I think the 3 best B&M models are already there)  This S&S model conversely would be on the same level as the big 5 KI coasters giving you 6 very top tier coasters. Then later on you add a RMC that snakes through the woods like Outlaw Run or Lightning Rod and well.........Greetings and Salutations

Are you related to stan checketts?

[BeastForever]

I'd say its important to note that Steel Vengeance happened in large part due to the opportunity they had with Mean Streak's infrastructure, and being at the right time in terms of RMC's technology. I would argue the same for Iron Gwazi to an extent. Under different circumstances, RMC Son of Beast could have happened (if it had gone defunct later, did not have pre-existing issues etc.) 

I wouldn't consider GateKeeper or Valravn to be anymore "game-changing" than anything KI has gotten under Cedar Fair.

@SonofBaconatorI understand your point of CP being more destination and CW and Carowinds having more growth potential than KI, but sort of disagree on what significance this plays with regards what kinds of coasters parks have gotten in recent years.

For the sake of argument, look at the totality of all the coasters Cedar Fair has built post-Maverick and you could argue that the play-it-safe trend has been more or less the case for every park, and with almost all the "records" broken being highly categorical. (and to be fair I believe the industry as a whole has been like this, as naturally there's going to be less and less records to break and less innovations to be made)

At Kings Island we've seen:

Diamondback, Banshee, Mystic Timbers, Orion

Carowinds:

Intimidator, Fury, Copperhead Strike

CW:

Behemoth, Leviathan, WMG, Yukon Striker

Overall, I don't really see a difference in terms of ambition or "groundbreakedness". Yes, Orion did not turn out as statistically impressive as Fury, but if they cost roughly the same, one would think there had to have been some extenuating circumstance that kept it from being so. (Circumstances which, while have been much discussed/speculated, IIRC KIGhostguy's will shed some light on this). I wouldn't consider any of the B&M giga coasters to be truly risky investments since we know B&M's track record of not trying something new until they're entirely certain it will work.

That having said, if you consider that KI has gotten 4 major ground-up coasters from 2009-2020, compared to 3 at Carowinds 2010-2019 and 3 at CW 2008-2019, you could argue that KI has actually been built up more than the two aforementioned parks. If you were to sum the cost of the four ground-up coasters we've gotten compared to the cost of Carowinds, CW and CP's major coasters they've gotten over that same time span, its about the same if not slightly more. 

I know you've said that you're happy with what we get, and I would agree that I'm happy as well. But I just feel like you're selling it a little short.

[silver2005]

^I would add to that line of conversation that the only ways to change the game in terms of coaster technology is going for overall height (above 456 ft) and speed records (above 150 mph) and making the seating mechanisms move in ways that haven't been thought of yet, which, we know Intamin has been the only one that went for the records and companies that produce the later are looked down upon here (though personally, I wouldn't mind a S&S 4D or a spinner of some sort).  RMC has only really just adjusted a few curvatures in elements to produce stronger forces, not that much of a game changer.   Adding LIMs/LSM's to a type that hasn't had them before isn't all that groundbreaking either. 

Wood coasters have already been pushed to their limits which have produced mixed results.  Traditional woodies can only do so much comfortably and there are track maintenance issues with the Intamin pre-fabs.  

Also going for the height and speed records would pretty much come in the form of TTD/Kingda Ka clones or Formula Rossa clones unless a park is willing to fork some serious cash for a MF/Fury 325 on steroids.   There's also space issues in making a coaster go faster and higher takes up massive amounts of space. 

I honestly think we've reached the plateau of new coaster technology.  

[coaster sally]

7 minutes ago, silver2005 said:

^I would add to that line of conversation that the only ways to change the game in terms of coaster technology is going for overall height (above 456 ft) and speed records (above 150 mph) and making the seating mechanisms move in ways that haven't been thought of yet, which, we know Intamin has been the only one that went for the records and companies that produce the later are looked down upon here (though personally, I wouldn't mind a S&S 4D or a spinner of some sort).  RMC has only really just adjusted a few curvatures in elements to produce stronger forces, not that much of a game changer.   

Wood coasters have already been pushed to their limits which have produced mixed results.  Traditional woodies can only do so much comfortably and there are track maintenance issues with the Intamin pre-fabs.  

Also going for the height and speed records would pretty much come in the form of TTD/Kingda Ka clones or Formula Rossa clones unless a park is willing to fork some serious cash for a MF/Fury 325 on steroids.   There's also space issues in making a coaster go faster and higher takes up massive amounts of space. 

I honestly think we've reached the plateau of new coaster technology.  

A 50° lift like on skyrush would only need a lift hill about the same as orions to get the height record.  Then have the rest of the elements low to the ground would be economical enough.  Probably do a LSM lift hill as well.

[silver2005]

^Those elements would still have to have very wide curvatures to accommodate those speeds at low altitudes plus a long pull out for the first drop.  

Also, been done before- I-305.  Not groundbreaking.

[coaster sally]

^the world's tallest coaster not ground breaking enough?

[SOBwasaSOB]

We are far from reaching the limit of coaster technology.  RMC raptors, for instance, can do things never done before.  I agree, though, that Cedar Fair as a whole has been playing it safe.  Sea World is the company going balls to the walls right now in America, and admittedly they are not doing so hot. I also think RMC has been revolutionary in more ways than @silver2005 gave credit for.  To each their own, but those angles and putting a launch on a wooden coaster alone are amazing innovations in my eyes.  There is a reason it had not been done before.

[SonofBaconator]

@BeastForever you are 100% correct! I was focusing more on the fact that we've been the most "tame" of the big 4 Cedar Fair parks when it comes to breaking records. I agree we're the more built up park vs CWL and CWS. I guess what I'm saying is as long as the quality is there, our additions don't need to be super innovative or ground breaking.

[coaster sally]

4 minutes ago, SOBwasaSOB said:

We are far from reaching the limit of coaster technology.  RMC raptors, for instance, can do things never done before.  I agree, though, that Cedar Fair as a whole has been playing it safe.  Sea World is the company going balls to the walls right now in America, and admittedly they are not doing so hot.

If SEAS bounces back post covid they may say screw it and put an put the worlds tallest giga at BGT.  Have it run along the edge of the serengetti plains.  Intamin is hot in the sunshine state.

[silver2005]

All RMC Raptors are when you get down to basics are standard sit down steel looping coasters that use tighter angles for stronger forces and reinforced track for less use of supports.   

Also, I would consider a height or speed record to be somewhat groundbreaking- its the way they design a coaster to do it that fits in a realistic ROI scenario, and so far, the 3 recent examples are TTD and KK (clones with a hill added in KK) and Formula Rossa which is just a bunch of wide turns and stretched out hills. 

[SOBwasaSOB]

1 minute ago, silver2005 said:

All RMC Raptors are when you get down to basics are standard sit down steel looping coasters that use tighter angles for stronger forces and reinforced track for less use of supports.   

Youre correct I meant to say trex, my mistake.  By making them the way they do they drastically reduce cost though, meaning you can fit more elements in for more bang for your buck.

[silver2005]

^T-Rex just uses 2 per seat seating over single file seating. 

[SonofBaconator]

1 minute ago, coaster sally said:

Intamin is hot in the sunshine state.

There's only 4 of them in Florida

[SOBwasaSOB]

3 minutes ago, silver2005 said:

^T-Rex just uses 2 per seat seating over single file seating. 

But can be buit as high and go as fast ad the parks wanna build rhem for a fraction of the intamin costs.  Breaking 500ft is pretty incredible.

Edit:  never thought I would say this but I would kill for a new Vekoma too.

[FUN&ONLY!]

There have been rumors for a while now that RMC has shelved the T-Rex model due to a probable lack of demand from parks. The model would be very expensive, and it would basically be competing head-on with B&M’s and Intamin’s. There is a lot more competition when it comes to the T-Rex than for the Raptor and Hybrid models. From a park’s perspective, they would rather spend nearly the same money on a B&M hyper that is a proven model, a crown pleaser, and a higher capacity ride.