Kings Dominion’s next best move after daytime fireworks

[Shaggy]

24 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

That can't be indefinite though. It would be one thing if BGW ordered something from B&M every 3 years or so but the park hasn't gotten a B&M since 2007. If that's the case B&M is limiting their clientele by only agreeing to work with one park, especially if they haven't sold anything to them in over a decade.

I cant imagine a company such as B&M having a "no build" clause with any given park/company... at least not for any lengthy amount of time.  Seems very constrictive for business.  I'd say if CF wanted B&M to build a coaster for KD, then B&M would build one.  Now, they may steer clear of duplicating "types" of coasters.... for instance, not building consecutive flyers, wing, divers at nearby competing parks... but again, I'd say that B&M will work with whatever a park wants them to do.

If I had to guess, I expect KD is operating on a very limited capitol budget.  Who knows this may be a small step toward a bigger plan...  I will say, however, I personally dislike this type of coaster.  (Edit - referring to the S&S Freespin KD is installing for 2022) I've ridden 4 of them across the states, and every one of them was - IMO - terrible.

 

[Browntggrr]

14 minutes ago, silver2005 said:

^I'm pretty sure BGW has a B&M clause with KD whereas KD can't build a new one.  I say new one as they got around it with Dominator being relocated.  

 

I have heard about this a few times and have always questioned the validity of it.

I don't understand why a roller coaster manufacturer would agree to, what is basically a non-compete, not add their product to another park?  If there were such a deal, the last B & M at BGW was in 2007, so is the deal forever??

The proximity of Sea World in TX to SFT also comes into question.

The logistics of such a deal is mind boggling.

[silver2005]

^My other theory is that the management at KD has just been too afraid to go toe to toe with BGW.  

I have a similar alternate theory with the similar 'clause' that CP had on KI and Canada's Wonderland involving B&M's.  I think its more Paramount wanted to be more out of the box and strayed away from B&M's in that regard.  

[SonofBaconator]

5 minutes ago, Shaggy said:

I will say, however, I personally dislike this type of coaster.  I've ridden 4 of them across the states, and every one of them was - IMO - terrible.

What coaster was terrible?

And @Browntggrr I agree. SWSA and SFFT both have Batman clones, granted one was a relocation. Fun little tidbit I believe that SWSA purposefully bought a Batman clone knowing that it would be something that Six Flags Fiesta Texas couldn't buy. I find it hilarious that Six Flags gave them one anyway.

There was a loose Rumor for a while that Kings Dominion was meant to get a hyper in 2016. The whole rumor came from the picture of the park skyline on an illustrated advertisement depicting a B&M hyper with red track and green supports which would indicate that it was something for Candy Apple Grove. 

[disco2000]

10 minutes ago, Shaggy said:

I cant imagine a company such as B&M having a "no build" clause with any given park/company... at least not for any lengthy amount of time.  Seems very constrictive for business.  I'd say if CF wanted B&M to build a coaster for KD, then B&M would build one.  Now, they may steer clear of duplicating "types" of coasters.... for instance, not building consecutive flyers, wing, divers at nearby competing parks... but again, I'd say that B&M will work with whatever a park wants them to do.

If I had to guess, I expect KD is operating on a very limited capitol budget.  Who knows this may be a small step toward a bigger plan...  I will say, however, I personally dislike this type of coaster.  I've ridden 4 of them across the states, and every one of them was - IMO - terrible.

 

I guess if said park paid more for the ride to cover B&M lost profit for X number years would be one way to handle it.

[Shaggy]

Just now, SonofBaconator said:

What coaster was terrible?

 

Sorry - I was referring to the S&S Freespin that KD is installing for 2022.  Frankly, that ride is beneath the park.

 

[silver2005]

Another problem with KD waiting so long to get a custom B&M is most of the models they're likely to get already exist at BGW and will inevitably be compared to such, and BGW is often just simply looked at as a better park, especially among locals.   Also, how would a hyper from any manufacture actually play out if there's a giga on the premesis? It would have to have some very unique elements to it to set it apart from Apollo's Chariot as well.  Sure, it worked in a way at Hershey, but they did a lot of other stuff around it like a new entrance.  KD's management and PR doesn't seem to have the will or creativity to pull that off at the moment. 

I feel they need to try Knott's approach in terms of coaster selection by going with the Macks and Gerstlauers of the world.  I do feel they should at least attempt to go for a B&M inverted coaster at some point.   Also get some very unique flats in there as well.  

[SonofBaconator]

20 minutes ago, Shaggy said:

Sorry - I was referring to the S&S Freespin that KD is installing for 2022.  Frankly, that ride is beneath the park.

 

Seeing as they're replacing a topspin with it, I'd consider it more of a flatride even though its a coaster.

[BoddaH1994]

3 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

That can't be indefinite though. It would be one thing if BGW ordered something from B&M every 3 years or so but the park hasn't gotten a B&M since 2007. If that's the case B&M is limiting their clientele by only agreeing to work with one park, especially if they haven't sold anything to them in over a decade.

That was the rumor about PKI and CP as well. It’s even mentioned in @KIghostguy’s book. I don’t think it’s necessarily true. Why on earth would B&M agree to that, and why would Cedar Fair have cared at the time? 

[SonofBaconator]

30 minutes ago, BoddaH1994 said:

That was the rumor about PKI and CP as well. It’s even mentioned in @KIghostguy’s book. I don’t think it’s necessarily true. Why on earth would B&M agree to that, and why would Cedar Fair have cared at the time? 

Bolliger agreed to do a giga for Canada's Wonderland because he felt like they owed the park in that respect. B&M themselves only make a fraction of what their ride costs since the main price can be attributed to the track and supports. For example, Diamondback cost $22 million but only part of that went to B&M. I'm sure exclusivity clauses are free money to them- getting paid to design less rides.

[PKIDelirium]

They goofed up with KD in 2010. Cedar Fair was in a hyper-building spree at the former Paramount parks, and yet instead of waiting one more year if needed and opening one at KD in 2011, they jumped to an Intamin giga in 2010, a ride so intense (and initially flawed) that most GP don’t seem to be very interested in it.

I get it, BGW has a hyper but they could have done something like Diamondback’s water brake or some other newer, unique element to promote it. Meanwhile, the three parks that DID get hypers all now also have a B&M giga. KD could have been in the same club.

They still need a hyper. Marketing could be a challenge but again, newer unique features or elements not found on Apollo’s Chariot due to it being one of the first.

They’ve got a lot of land in the back where the railroad and safari used to reside that could allow for some major expansion without interfering with the newer areas of the waterpark that are behind Racer 75. Perhaps a midway connection from the end of Candy Apple Grove over to the newer area of the waterpark would be a good place to start with utilizing that land.

[silver2005]

^Their desperate effort to keep retheming that area is also kind of a thing where time and effort could be spent doing literally anything else better. 

[KIghostguy]

10 hours ago, Shaggy said:

I cant imagine a company such as B&M having a "no build" clause with any given park/company... at least not for any lengthy amount of time.  Seems very constrictive for business.  I'd say if CF wanted B&M to build a coaster for KD, then B&M would build one.  Now, they may steer clear of duplicating "types" of coasters.... for instance, not building consecutive flyers, wing, divers at nearby competing parks... but again, I'd say that B&M will work with whatever a park wants them to do.

I don't know about Kings Dominion, but there was an exclusivity clause B&M had with Cedar Point. Kings Island tried to build a B&M in the late '90's and even had Walter Bolliger come out to walk the land, but the Cedar Point exclusivity clause prevented that coaster from being built. Coincidentally, this was the same spot that Diamondback would end up going into.

I realize this is probably old news since I mentioned it in Kings Island: A Ride Through Time, but hey, it's an interesting story worth repeating!

[disco2000]

You know you are unloved and the red-headed stepchild when you plan a new ride announcement and corporate beats you to it and announces it to the world as part of a chain-wide update just hours before your big announcement LOL.

[SonofBaconator]

25 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

You know you are unloved and the red-headed stepchild when you plan a new ride announcement and corporate beats you to it and announces it to the world as part of a chain-wide update just hours before your big announcement LOL.

That might have been in response to the leak

[BoddaH1994]

33 minutes ago, KIghostguy said:

I don't know about Kings Dominion, but there was an exclusivity clause B&M had with Cedar Point. Kings Island tried to build a B&M in the late '90's and even had Walter Bolliger come out to walk the land, but the Cedar Point exclusivity clause prevented that coaster from being built. Coincidentally, this was the same spot that Diamondback would end up going into.

I realize this is probably old news since I mentioned it in Kings Island: A Ride Through Time, but hey, it's an interesting story worth repeating!

You see, that whole thing just doesn’t add up. I’m not doubting that it’s what you told, but if there was a no compete or a radius then why would Walt bother to come out to Kings Island? Would he not know about that? It just has never added up for me.

[silver2005]

If Walt was there in the 90s and Kings Island already had a stand up, I have to imagine there was plans for there to be an inverted coaster where Diamondback is now.

After recently riding Afterburn at Carowinds, I'd almost rather of had that than DB or Banshee if it was as good as Afterburn turned out (I personally like it more than DB and Banshee). 

[DiamondbackFan]

13 hours ago, silver2005 said:

^I'm pretty sure BGW has a B&M clause with KD whereas KD can't build a new one.  I say new one as they got around it with Dominator being relocated.  

 

Maybe they could get Vekoma or Mack Rides to build a hyper coaster.

[PKIDelirium]

22 hours ago, silver2005 said:

^Their desperate effort to keep retheming that area is also kind of a thing where time and effort could be spent doing literally anything else better. 

The wooded area could give them a shot at adding another themed area. With BGW having Oktoberfest a Black Forest wouldn’t work very well, but I’m sure they could come up with something to fit with the rather densely wooded area where all that available land is. Cedar Fair has gotten a lot better at themed areas, they could get some flats and a large, modern-element hyper like Shambala to establish the new area back there. Leaning towards the higher end of the spectrum for height and length of a hyper would give them an edge over AC, and integrating newer elements from the gigas like what they’ve done on a hyper scale with Candymonium would be a real winner, especially running back into those woods.

[FUN&ONLY!]

Kings Dominion announced yesterday that they are introducing the Winterfest Wonderland Parade for this season. I actually really like this addition, and I hope it will also eventually be rolled out to Kings Island because it would really add to the event in my opinion.

[silver2005]

Doesn't KD own land comparable to what KI owns?

[PKIDelirium]

The chainwide press release claims KD is 400 acres. Considering the layout is a somewhat more compact version of KI, and the developed park is noticeably smaller than KI or CP, I’m guessing that includes all the former railroad and Lion Country Safari land in the back. Unlike KI, their former safari land is flatter and doesn’t have the marsh-like ground as you get further away from the main park, so there’s a lot of potential with it.

While unlikely due to lack of available Crown hardware, it would be nice if a railroad could also return as part of my proposed new area behind Racer 75. Could even connect it to a waterpark station if they wanted it to act as transport. I’m not sure what the cost would be to get another company to build all new locomotives and cars, though.

[SonofBaconator]

32 minutes ago, PKIDelirium said:

While unlikely due to lack of available Crown hardware, it would be nice if a railroad could also return as part of my proposed new area behind Racer 75. Could even connect it to a waterpark station if they wanted it to act as transport. I’m not sure what the cost would be to get another company to build all new locomotives and cars, though.

Fortunately the only way that Kings Dominion would ever be able to get steam locomotives back is if they sent Levi from Worlds of Fun back to Kings Dominion. The park in it of itself it's set up somewhat strange. Rebel Yell and the train were the Park's boundary, so when the park wanted to expand they went beyond the train tracks and Rebel Yell. The only way they can make the train a transport ride is if they went from old Virginia all the way over to the new Xpedition area but even then it would have to find a way back to old virgina and that could really only happen with parallel trackage.

From what I was told the train wasn't exactly a popular ride and therefore closed early a lot of days. In my opinion they could have sold off one of the locomotives and just kept going with one train operations like what Six Flags St Louis does. Steam trains bring a certain life to an amusement park and when you get rid of that you get rid of something that families can do together. However the one major flaw that Taft had with the park's trains was that they were never built as transport rides so just riding a train for 8 minutes lost appeal with a lot of people. An argument could be made that we might have lost our train ride if it didn't become a transport ride to Waterworks. At Busch Gardens Williamsburg guests are able to board the train to take them to another section the part which was something that existed since the park's opening.

These are some pictures I found online of the final few years of the Old Dominion Line.

 

[PKIDelirium]

The new railroad would be located in my proposed new themed area behind Racer 75 and also featuring flats, shops and a large hyper. The area would originate with a midway connection from the end of Candy Apple Grove, leading to the newer waterpark areas further down behind R75. The railroad would not be in the same location and route as original, but rather a new layout, with a station in the new midway behind R75’s station area, and routing through the woods and back to the station. A second station at the waterpark would allow for it to be a short distance transport between near the entrance of the new area, and the waterpark.

Perhaps I’ll do a mockup with a Google Maps screenshot to better show my idea for a park expansion.

[CoastersRZ]

Thanks for sharing those photos SonofBaconator!  

I agree that Afterburn at Carowinds is a great inverted coaster.  It still ranks up there as one of my favorite B&M inverts.