KI Comms

[Orion-XL200]

1 minute ago, SonofBaconator said:

Weird that they’re posting something about that now. It’s a shame because it looks great and would’ve been an awesome teaser for Adventure Express’ updated theming. It seems like a missed opportunity. Now everyone’s on Instagram saying sOb 2.0 Is CoMiNg. 

Wonder when a new park released POV of AE will come out.

[SonofBaconator]

2 minutes ago, Orion-XL200 said:

Wonder when a new park released POV of AE will come out.

[Tr0y]

4 hours ago, jsus said:

Cedar Point needs to sell TT2 as a new ride.  They need to convince the public it's not the same ride, it's not like Mantis > Rougarou which was little more than new trains.

Cranes are expensive, especially the big ones with hoist heights of 374 feet, like the one they brought in to start new vertical construction.  Except, they weren't actually planning on building the new tower during daily operations with Iron Dragon still in operation.  No, they brought in the big, impressive crane (albeit not big enough to finish the 420 ft structure) so that the media could see, clear as day, that they are "building a new ride".  They didn't even install more than the 3 base support segments.  The crane appears to have been returned to Capital City Group.

Why would they take the time and expense to bring in a big crane only to install what a much smaller, cheaper crane could've handled?  The only logical reason is that it was a ceremonial installation.  They want the media, the public, to see that they are "building a whole new ride here".

And in reality, it will by and large be a new ride, even if it shares the base concept and the top hat with its spiritual predecessor.  Even the launch and brake track appears to be brand new, fabricated by Zamperla to match the original INTAMIN specs.  The trains, mechanical systems, control systems, and pretty much all the steel short of some of the top hat and launch/brake supports are all brand new.

The last thing the park wants after all of this is for guests to think that it might be the same ride with the same safety risks as TTD, after all of the money they are throwing at reimagining the ride.  Different trains, different control system.  Everything that led to the tragic incident back in 2021 is gone.  Everything that led to pretty much every major injury-causing incident with TTD is gone, particularly the steel cables snapping and the issues with the chewed up brake fins on the launch.

Tony & co may not come out and directly say "we rebuilt the ride to make it safer", but they need you to know that anyway.  As much as it may seem like a pretty minor project to some, it's pretty major for the park.

Yup, reimagining the ride was a no brainer. It should be more reliable and they were able to break multiple world records in the process of converting it. The reason for wanting to grab all the media attention and trying to sell it as “new” is simple. Gotta sell hotel rooms, that’s the real cash cow.

[Orion-XL200]

2 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

How soon was that posted after I asked? Just wondering. 

[SonofBaconator]

13 minutes ago, Orion-XL200 said:

How soon was that posted after I asked? Just wondering. 

My time stamp says 3:26PM. Not sure the exact time you posted yours.

[Tr0y]

I wonder if the park will mention Vince on hitting 5k rides on Orion this week? Or is that only if you ride The Racer? 

[brenthodge]

On 8/15/2023 at 1:17 AM, Oldiesmann said:

My only contribution to this thread is that I think it's odd how we got absolutely no hints/news from the park about possible 2024 plans besides a "we're announcing 2024 plans tomorrow" announcement at 6:30 the night before. I realize this isn't as big a deal as Orion, Mystic Timbers, etc., but a great and much-needed addition to the kids area that will appeal to most families deserves more than a "we're announcing something tomorrow" post. Something to get the kids excited about what's coming next, etc.

Meanwhile Holiday World gets everyone talking by confirming prior to the announcement that they're building a new coaster and even created a website for a fictitious company to go along with it. Add a quirky theme and name and suddenly everyone is talking about it. If a small park can pull that off, why can't a large one with a (probably) much larger marketing budget?

They can, they just choose not to. And I agree. The lack of “build up” shows there is no one creative in control. On the day of Holiday world announcement I would’ve posted “Good Grief, now we’ve got to cook up something good to keep our camp happy” or something like that to hint at what’s coming, jab the competition, throw people off (is it a restaurant?) and just have fun. No, we got a stock pic of the riffle tower with a lame “guess what it’s going to be” attempt at engagement. 

[Orion-XL200]

52 minutes ago, brenthodge said:

They can, they just choose not to. And I agree. The lack of “build up” shows there is no one creative in control. On the day of Holiday world announcement I would’ve posted “Good Grief, now we’ve got to cook up something good to keep our camp happy” or something like that to hint at what’s coming, jab the competition, throw people off (is it a restaurant?) and just have fun. No, we got a stock pic of the riffle tower with a lame “guess what it’s going to be” attempt at engagement. 

Agreed...so many things that could have been done....but unenthusiastic effort from KI Comms shows that they do not know the park or that they just don't care. 

[DispatchMaster]

22 hours ago, jsus said:

Why would they take the time and expense to bring in a big crane only to install what a much smaller, cheaper crane could've handled?  The only logical reason is that it was a ceremonial installation.  They want the media, the public, to see that they are "building a whole new ride here".

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, considering the media and public were there to observe the installation of the support columns, and would have witnessed the installation even if they had been using a system of ropes and pulleys festooned to tall trees.

[disco2000]

14 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, considering the media and public were there to observe the installation of the support columns, and would have witnessed the installation even if they had been using a system of ropes and pulleys festooned to tall trees.

You obviously don't understand the concept of the ceremonial act of "breaking ground".  In many instances they are simply a photo ops for elected officials digging with a "gold" shovel and usually with some big equipment around that may or may not be used on said project LOL.  A gold shovel isn't really used for the construction LOL, but it makes for a great picture of elected officials in suits and hard hats "breaking ground" on the new project (that may have actually started months ago) LOL.

In this case, it is a company trying to get interest in their project and they are going vertical with the installation, so they bring in a big crane for a photo op.  Heck the rental company may have brought it free of charge for the free publicity/marketing of their company....

What is a better photo op for the media - a system of ropes and pulleys festooned to tall trees or a big @$$ crane LOL.  Granted I would like to see festooned to tall trees LOL, but that isn't the look they are going for 

[DispatchMaster]

You should listen to the recent CoasterRadio podcast when they had Tony Clark on, wherein he basically made fun of the type of nonsensical speculation you're engaging in.

The construction requirements drive these project decisions. Is it inconceivable that there were technical considerations that you haven't considered regarding the installation of those supports that drove the use of that crane?

[jsus]

21 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

You obviously don't understand the concept of the ceremonial act of "breaking ground".  In many instances they are simply a photo ops for elected officials digging with a "gold" shovel and usually with some big equipment around that may or may not be used on said project LOL.  A gold shovel isn't really used for the construction LOL, but it makes for a great picture of elected officials in suits and hard hats "breaking ground" on the new project (that may have actually started months ago) LOL.

In this case, it is a company trying to get interest in their project and they are going vertical with the installation, so they bring in a big crane for a photo op.  Heck the rental company may have brought it free of charge for the free publicity/marketing of their company....

What is a better photo op for the media - a system of ropes and pulleys festooned to tall trees or a big @$$ crane LOL.  Granted I would like to see festooned to tall trees LOL, but that isn't the look they are going for 

And I'm really not sure where the confusion lies.

Big crane came in.  Except not big enough when maxed out to complete the job.  374 ft hoist height doesn't get you a 420 ft tower.

Three base support column segments went up on three footings.  CP marketing was sure to bring the media in to witness this event.  It was the ceremonial start of vertical construction (even if they technically went vertical replacing the existing track with replicas).

Crane has not been seen or heard from since.  No further vertical construction has occurred in the lagoon.

Normally, when you bring in a big expensive crane, you want to go, go, go as every day, you're burning money on those rental fees.  In this case, it was only used for 3 cylindrical pieces of steel that a small crane could've handled.  Small cranes are easier, cheaper to find, but they did not do that.

Seems pretty clear that the big crane was just for show, as was the erecting of those 3 support column base segments.  Otherwise, it would've kept going after the cameras left, instead of itself leaving.

[DispatchMaster]

1 minute ago, jsus said:

Crane has not been seen or heard from since.

Are you sure that's not the crane that is currently parked on site near the launch track?

[jsus]

5 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

Are you sure that's not the crane that is currently parked on site near the launch track?

The big Liebherr was only used for the new tower (and to inspect the old tower when it/a similar unit of the same model visited previously).

A much smaller crane, cheaper to rent, right-sized has been used for the non-ceremonial work on the launch and brake track.  You don't use a 374 ft crane to build 20 ft off the ground.

Unless you can show pictures to indicate something like a Liebherr LTM 1300-6.2 is still on site.  So far, no one has.

https://www.liebherr.com/en/usa/products/mobile-and-crawler-cranes/mobile-cranes/liebherr-mobile-cranes/ltm-1300-6.2.html

Because this is not it.  It's tiny by comparison.

 

[DispatchMaster]

OK, fair enough, but I don't think the most likely explanation is to attract media attention of media that was already there. That's an absurdly illogical assumption that not only makes zero sense, but, again, is precisely the type of thing that Tony made fun of in his recent podcast appearance.

But as they say, you cannot reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into.

Also, do you have a picture of the crane they used for the support install?

[DispatchMaster]

Nevermind, I found video of the installation. First of all, the crane they used was not configured to include the lattice jib, so the max height was nowhere near its max lift height of 384'. But that's all beside the point, as I'll explain.

The crane is parked on the opposite side of the photo building, meaning the horizontal distance to the furthest footer is around 150'. Let's assume ID's track is 40' above ground level, and naturally the crane boom must be above that by some nonzero amount, let's say by 10', so as the boom passes above ID's track it's 50' high. That results in the boom having a ~30 degree angle relative to the ground at it's lowest point. That means that at 150' of horizontal distance when the support is being set into place, the boom is extended about 175'. And, as should be obvious, the further the crane's boom is extended horizontally the lower the carrying load capacity.

So, what is the carrying capacity of that crane in those conditions? Because it sure as heck stands to reason that particular crane was needed, not for showmanship or grandeur, but simply given the distance they had to extend out into the lagoon and above Iron Dragon with a considerably heavy support hanging from it.

So, again, the construction requirements drive these decisions, full stop.

[standbyme]

2 hours ago, DispatchMaster said:

…..Tony Clark on, wherein he basically made fun of the type of nonsensical speculation you're engaging in.

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

Let's assume…

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

So, again, the construction requirements drive these decisions, full stop.

 

 

[DispatchMaster]

Oh please. He made fun of folks making silly assumptions that fly in the face of reality, while pointing out that there are practical, business-driven explanations for decisions.

[jsus]

1 minute ago, DispatchMaster said:

Oh please. He made fun of folks making silly assumptions that fly in the face of reality, while pointing out that there are practical, business-driven explanations for decisions.

Interesting that you seem convinced that marketing is not "practical, business-driven explanations for decisions".  Interesting to see the "silly assumptions" you make.

And that you feel the need to stoop to personal attacks and straw man arguments.

Well, not really interesting.

[DispatchMaster]

Using an overly-expensive piece of heavy machinery is not in any way, shape, or form a practical use of capital.

So, again, what's the lifting capacity of the two on-site cranes given the distance, height, and load of the support installation? Because that crane being necessary given those circumstances is a far more likely explanation than attracting media that was already on site.

[disco2000]

32 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

Using an overly-expensive piece of heavy machinery is not in any way, shape, or form a practical use of capital.

So, again, what's the lifting capacity of the two on-site cranes given the distance, height, and load of the support installation? Because that crane being necessary given those circumstances is a far more likely explanation than attracting media that was already on site.

It is not uncommon for companies associated with a project to lend their machinery as marketing for them as part of a ground breaking ceremony as all the pics are free advertising for them.

So maybe CF didn't spend any capital for the crane to be there.  Or maybe they did.  In any event it is part of the overall marketing strategy and selling of the new ride.

Heck some movies spend more in marketing the movie than the actual movie cost to produce lol.

[jsus]

13 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

It is not uncommon for companies associated with a project to lend their machinery as marketing for them as part of a ground breaking ceremony as all the pics are free advertising for them.

So maybe CF didn't spend any capital for the crane to be there.  Or maybe they did.  In any event it is part of the overall marketing strategy and selling of the new ride.

Heck some movies spend more in marketing the movie than the actual movie cost to produce lol.

Capital City Group got a bit of attention on their crane.  Adena got a bit of attention on their crew.  Cedar Point drew attention to their reimagined ride and the scale of the project.

Well, all of this clearly wasn't dictated by the construction schedule.  Otherwise, why would they start the lagoon construction in front of the cameras, and as soon as said cameras were gone, stop work in the lagoon and return the crane?  What construction schedule (without influence from the client, namely its marketing dept, that is) says you bring in a big, but not big enough to finish, crane, install the very first pieces, and then just stop?  When you bring in a crane, especially the more expensive ones, you want to keep going so you can stop the daily rental fees as soon as safely possible.

So why else was that crane brought in at that time and paraded in front of the media?  What other logical explanation is there?

All this comes down to the initial point that was being made - Cedar Point's marketing/communications team is clearly communicating, by use of that crane, that this is not the old Top Thrill Dragster.  And potentially spending a decent sum to do so, as unexpected as that was.

[disco2000]

3 minutes ago, jsus said:

Capital City Group got a bit of attention on their crane.  Adena got a bit of attention on their crew.  Cedar Point drew attention to their reimagined ride and the scale of the project.

Well, all of this clearly wasn't dictated by the construction schedule.  Otherwise, why would they start the lagoon construction in front of the cameras, and as soon as said cameras were gone, stop work in the lagoon and return the crane?  What construction schedule (without influence from the client, namely its marketing dept, that is) says you bring in a big, but not big enough to finish, crane, install the very first pieces, and then just stop?  When you bring in a crane, especially the more expensive ones, you want to keep going so you can stop the daily rental fees as soon as safely possible.

So why else was that crane brought in at that time and paraded in front of the media?  What other logical explanation is there?

All this comes down to the initial point that was being made - Cedar Point's marketing/communications team is clearly communicating, by use of that crane, that this is not the old Top Thrill Dragster.  And potentially spending a decent sum to do so, as unexpected as that was.

The was the point of my post you quoted...it could be simply for marketing and not construction...

[jsus]

Just now, disco2000 said:

The was the point of my post you quoted...it could be simply for marketing and not construction...

Yes, we're in agreement. 

[DispatchMaster]

It's honestly stunning that anyone would think marketing is a more logical explanation than the crane actually being necessary. Completely stunning.

I mean, of the dozens of people there, how many are in the market for a crane? Or maybe you're suggesting the media coverage is what they were after, in which case show me one singular news story that showcased the crane, Capital City, or anything along those lines.

As for why else they'd bring the crane? As I already explained, using observations about the construction site and that particular crane's capabilities, it is very likely that a crane of that lifting capacity and range was necessary given the distance to the foundations from where the crane could access them.

As for why they set only those pieces and nothing more, sure, maybe putting those in at that time was part of the announcement, but it's also possible they had more work planned for the crane, but weather prohibited them from proceeding with more, and the crane was needed elsewhere. That would also explain why there hasn't been any painting in recent weeks, since Sandusky has had a fair bit of harsh weather lately.

But given the illogical nature of the argument you're making, the burden of proof is on you to show something resembling evidence, so again, point me to news coverage that highlights the crane, Capital City, etc.

[DispatchMaster]

22 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

It is not uncommon for companies associated with a project to lend their machinery as marketing

Can you provide an example of this?

[disco2000]

When you have an X million dollar contract and the client says "hey can we borrow a piece of machinery for our ground breaking ceremony" as it adds to the atmosphere of the event, often times a company is glad to do so and considers it cheap investment in client relationships...especially if the equipment is not in active use making money at the moment...

Not every dollar associated with marketing is directly attributed to new business...sometimes it is to keep the existing client happy and build a relationship to get more work...

[DispatchMaster]

And yet you cannot provide a single example of this happening, despite this apparently being a very smart and totally common occurrence.

L  O  L    

[jsus]

Let's also keep in mind just how close this structure will come to Iron Dragon (which presently remains open), Coasters, Rougarou, etc.  It's right over top of and next to ID.  There's no other obvious reason for them to have just barely started lagoon construction during daily operations when they're not going to shut down ID let alone anything else, at least not yet.  Maybe during Halloweekends, they'll work during the week.  They'll only have Monday through early Thursday afternoon as CP is open Thursdays 6p-12m.  Or they should have enough time if they wait until November.

Anyway, no more feeding the trolls.

[disco2000]

17 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

And yet you cannot provide a single example of this happening, despite this apparently being a very smart and totally common occurrence.

L  O  L    

My own personal experience on dozens of contracts lol.  My interactions with CEOs and other executives in similar situations...  Whether you choose to believe it or not is your problem not mine...I'm not going to provide you with copies of emails from clients asking to provide this or that for their marketing activity lol...

Companies keep their marketing activities and decisions close and don't share how they maintain client relationships.  A company isn't going to throw their client under the bus and say the only reason why a piece of equipment or a person was there was because the client asked lol.  So I doubt you will find an article that says this is what successful companies do to maintain client relationships..

Like I said sometimes marketing dollars are spent on goodwill and brand recognition.

Otherwise why would B&M for example bring a train to the amusement convention and then spend all day talking to bloggers and enthusiasts that clearly are not going to be buying a ride from B&M lol...I guess in your mind that is a bad use of spending money...

Feeding of troll done lol