Haunt Constructive Criticisms

[BeeastFarmer]

27 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

One possible explanation would be that the park is trying to attract families, who by-and-large tend to be much higher per-cap guests compared to a bunch of teenagers. That's a natural pivot especially given the chaperone policy. More revenue from the same number, or better yet, fewer guests is a wise strategy. It sucks for anyone who just wants haunts, but there is no shortage of haunted entertainment outside of the park.

This point about family friendly haunt is fairly well established.  

Corporate wants higher attendance, not less attendance.  Lower attendance will look bad on quarterly reports and potentially drive down the unit price...so the board and directors, who have large amounts of units will loose actual and/or potential dollars.  They are motivated to drive attendance. 

 

[DispatchMaster]

They should be motivated to drive revenue and profit, attendance be darned. Attendance is meaningless, after all, if the parks aren't profitable.

If the parks could maintain current revenue with lower attendance, that would necessarily result in higher profit margin due to reduced variable costs, like food. Further, even simply maintaining revenue with lower attendance reduces the need for staffing, further increasing profit margins.

Put another way, it would be preferable to sell one item for a million dollar profit than one million items for a profit of one dollar each. That's obviously an extreme, impossible scenario, but the point is it's always preferable to get more money from fewer people than the other way around.

However, it's also true that CF has recently (post-Ouimet) pivoted to the short term, SIX-esque "strategy" of lowering admission with the goal of short term attendance gains to drive revenue. The better long term strategy would be to drive up the gate price to the point that they price out a segment of their guests in order to attract higher per-cap guests. The Disney-lite strategy.

Regardless, my point was that it makes a lot of sense to pivot away from teen-focused haunts in favor of family-friendly events in any environment, but especially so given the chaperone policy.

[disco2000]

Cedar Fair has proven (short term obviously post-covid) that they can have lower attendance like was seen in 2022, yet have record profits. 

While 2022 attendance was down 4% compared to pre-covid 2019, full year 2022 revenue was up 23% compared to pre-covid 2019, thus proving you don't have to give away the gate and don't need increased attendance every year and can still produce record revenue...

Now the bubble burst this year and everything chain-wide is down so it will be interesting to see what they do moving forward, but parks have shown they can make more money with lower attendance if the strategy is there and they commit to it and not give away the gate the moment there is a blip.

[rlentless]

Just a thought . . because of brawls and other incidents that led to the Chaperone policy.  They had to pivot to more family-friendly environment to help keep attendance at Haunt expectant levels.

Glad to hear the fog is back.

[BeeastFarmer]

2 hours ago, DispatchMaster said:

They should be motivated to drive revenue and profit, attendance be darned. Attendance is meaningless, after all, if the parks aren't profitable.

If the parks could maintain current revenue with lower attendance, that would necessarily result in higher profit margin due to reduced variable costs, like food. Further, even simply maintaining revenue with lower attendance reduces the need for staffing, further increasing profit margins.

Put another way, it would be preferable to sell one item for a million dollar profit than one million items for a profit of one dollar each. That's obviously an extreme, impossible scenario, but the point is it's always preferable to get more money from fewer people than the other way around.

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works! (Reference to a car insurance commercial with old women).

 

2 hours ago, disco2000 said:

Cedar Fair has proven (short term obviously post-covid) that they can have lower attendance like was seen in 2022, yet have record profits. 

While 2022 attendance was down 4% compared to pre-covid 2019, full year 2022 revenue was up 23% compared to pre-covid 2019, thus proving you don't have to give away the gate and don't need increased attendance every year and can still produce record revenue...

Now the bubble burst this year and everything chain-wide is down so it will be interesting to see what they do moving forward, but parks have shown they can make more money with lower attendance if the strategy is there and they commit to it and not give away the gate the moment there is a blip.

Had attendance numbers been up after the second quarter, we likely would not have seen budget cuts at all or as severe.  The deferred maintenance alone will cost them long term. 

[DispatchMaster]

20 minutes ago, BeeastFarmer said:

That's not how this works.

Which part? Do you not understand how revenue and profit works, and that they are not necessarily tied to attendance?

Case in point - MA enjoy some of the highest operating margins among the CF chain, yet have relatively dismal attendance compared to the likes of CP and KI.

[BeeastFarmer]

4 hours ago, DispatchMaster said:

Which part? Do you not understand how revenue and profit works, and that they are not necessarily tied to attendance?

Case in point - MA enjoy some of the highest operating margins among the CF chain, yet have relatively dismal attendance compared to the likes of CP and KI.

Do you not understand how quarterly reports work and attendance numbers affect unit price?

While I would love to see higher ticket prices and lower attendance for increased profit, that's not how they run their business. 

[Tr0y]

[FUN&ONLY!]

Attendance figure are VERY important for Cedar Fair. Investors like to see year over year growth in attendance as that indicates Cedar Fair is reaching new people and growing. That’s why Cedar Fair’s stick did not perform too well in 2022 despite record revenue. Attendance did not meet expectations. Of course investors also care about revenue and profits, but those numbers can only go up so much year over year without attracting new people.

Much of the increases in revenue and profit we have seen from Cedar Fair over the past couple of years were a result of investments in food and beverage facilities that drove guest spending. Higher prices on tickets and basically everything else also greatly contributed to this growth. The issue is that Cedar Fair can only build and renovate so many new restaurants before new ones no longer attract as many new guests to spend more on food and beverage. The company can only hike prices so much until guests stop purchasing altogether. The issue is that Cedar Fair is approaching the ceiling on how much money they can squeeze out of current guests. Once they reach that limit, revenue and profits will be relatively flat if attendance remains the same. In order to enable future growth, Cedar Fair needs to increase attendance and bring new guests into its parks.

[SonofBaconator]

News across the chain

[Orion742]

56 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

News across the chain

Is this only for KD?

[Kenban]

4 minutes ago, Orion742 said:

Is this only for KD?

Carowinds, Worlds of Fun, Canadas Wonderland, and Kings Dominion all have this same policy.  I know it was announced months ago for Kings Dominion, and is how they have been operating since haunt started.  I do not think it was a new policy at all of these parks either.  Knott’s also clears the park but it’s a true separate ticket and annual passes do not work, I believe the rest of these parks do allow annual pass admissions for haunt.

Kings Island, Cedar Point, and Dorney are the only parks in the chain to my knowledge which do not clear the park before haunt and I believe the only parks that allow guests with regular day tickets access to haunt.

I would not be surprised to see this expand to more of the chain next year.

[Tr0y]

2 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

News across the chain

For those who like to complain about what they get for haunt. I’d say be careful what you ask for. 

I get wanting a better experience, however money also doesn’t grow on trees. 

[brenthodge]

20 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

For those who like to complain about what they get for haunt. I’d say be careful what you ask for. 

I get wanting a better experience, however money also doesn’t grow on trees. 

The pics I’ve seen from Dominion, I’d say the cost seems to be justified. Seems like a better all around event just from what I’ve seen. Anyone know how the parade is going at Carrowinds? The first night videos looked pretty poorly watched. 

[DispatchMaster]

13 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said:

While I would love to see higher ticket prices and lower attendance for increased profit, that's not how they run their business.

Correct, and I'm pointing out two things - one, that they're running their business shortsightedly if they're focusing on attendance over revenue (see SIX), and two, that attendance absent revenue growth will tank the stock faster than the inverse.

[DispatchMaster]

13 hours ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

Of course investors also care about revenue and profits, but those numbers can only go up so much year over year without attracting new people.

Attendance can also only go up so much YOY because these are regional parks with a relatively fixed population. So yes, they should absolutely focus on maintaining attendance, but given attendance can only go up so much, they need to extract more revenue from those guests.

Which, again, is why it's a smart move to lean toward the family demographic rather than the teenager demo during Haunt.

[BeeastFarmer]

3 hours ago, DispatchMaster said:

Correct, and I'm pointing out two things - one, that they're running their business shortsightedly if they're focusing on attendance over revenue (see SIX), and two, that attendance absent revenue growth will tank the stock faster than the inverse.

But you are living in a theoretical box.  We have to deal with what the reality is. The truth is that most publicity traded entities focus on building a customer base through addition because of churn. If CF was not focused on growing the business they would do a disservice to the unitholders. If you are not growing, you are dying, and the market penetration is nowhere near complete. This is why they currently focus on the family demographic because the more they reach the more will come and then, the per caps increase in numbers.  

By the way, Cedar Fair does not issue stock.  They issue units.

3 hours ago, DispatchMaster said:

Attendance can also only go up so much YOY because these are regional parks with a relatively fixed population. So yes, they should absolutely focus on maintaining attendance, but given attendance can only go up so much, they need to extract more revenue from those guests.

Which, again, is why it's a smart move to lean toward the family demographic rather than the teenager demo during Haunt.

You can multiquote in one post vs. two separate posts.

[DispatchMaster]

22 minutes ago, BeeastFarmer said:

...the market penetration is nowhere near complete.

Cedar Point hasn't seen meaningful, sustained attendance gains (as a percentage of regional population) in almost 30 years, since the debut of Raptor. Even the addition of HW seems to have primarily shifted some visits from the summer to fall. I would imagine the same is true of KI, though perhaps on a more recent timeline given it's a somewhat less-mature park in terms of attraction lineup.

These parks make capex additions to maintain attendance. Regional parks are not going to suddenly attract a meaningful number of guests from 10+ hours outside their region regardless of what they offer. They're not Disney.

This is why CF has been looking to enhancements (dining deals, Fast Lane, etc.) to grow per-cap numbers, and acquisition and expansion (TX water parks, E Sports, etc.) to grow revenue and add revenue diversity.

[BeeastFarmer]

2 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

 

These parks make capex additions to maintain attendance. Regional parks are not going to suddenly attract a meaningful number of guests from 10+ hours outside their region regardless of what they offer. They're not Disney.

This is why CF has been looking to enhancements (dining deals, Fast Lane, etc.) to grow per-cap numbers, and acquisition and expansion (TX water parks, E Sports, etc.) to grow revenue and add revenue diversity.

The number of guests that come from ten hours away is minimal and does not contribute meaningful to the bottom line. I agree with that. But market penetration is local...if there 1000 households in a 3 hour radius and ⁴ have season passes and 3 make a one or two days trip, they want to capture more of the 993 households. If they get 10 of those, and 7 die, they are still ahead. That's the growth cycle.  When attendance is down, the bean counters present it to the board and they panic because they see their money disappearing. So they cut the nose off the parks to spite their face. That's what we have seen this year.  Again, reality vs theory box. 

[Tr0y]

30 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

Cedar Point hasn't seen meaningful, sustained attendance gains (as a percentage of regional population) in almost 30 years, since the debut of Raptor. Even the addition of HW seems to have primarily shifted some visits from the summer to fall. I would imagine the same is true of KI, though perhaps on a more recent timeline given it's a somewhat less-mature park in terms of attraction lineup.

These parks make capex additions to maintain attendance. Regional parks are not going to suddenly attract a meaningful number of guests from 10+ hours outside their region regardless of what they offer. They're not Disney.

This is why CF has been looking to enhancements (dining deals, Fast Lane, etc.) to grow per-cap numbers, and acquisition and expansion (TX water parks, E Sports, etc.) to grow revenue and add revenue diversity.

Cedar Point is not a regional park.

[FUN&ONLY!]

53 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

This is why CF has been looking to enhancements (dining deals, Fast Lane, etc.) to grow per-cap numbers, and acquisition and expansion (TX water parks, E Sports, etc.) to grow revenue and add revenue diversity.

There is only so much Cedar Fair can do to get guests to spend more and increase per cap spending at the rate they have been. The company has introduced Fast Lane, raised the quality and price of food, introduced the Prestige Pass, and introduced Single-Use Fast Lane in recent years in an effort to get guests to spend more. There are only so many more money grabs that Cedar Fair can think of in order to continue seeing guest spending increase at a high rate. The company really need to focus on driving demand whether that be through expanding its portfolio of parks (which is extremely expensive) or attracting new guests to its existing parks by improving the experience whether that be by adding new rides and attractions or just improving the guest experience.

 

22 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

Cedar Point is not a regional park.

It depends on how you look at it. I would say it definitely is a regional park compared to Disney or Universal as most of its visitors are from Ohio and surrounding states. While it may be a destination park for enthusiasts all over the world, it still attracts mostly regional guests. Compared to smaller Cedar Fair parks like Worlds of Fun or Dorney Park, Cedar Point definitely has a much stronger regional pull, though, as guests will travel 4 hours to go to Cedar Point but probably not as much for Worlds of Fun or Dorney Park. In this sense, it could be viewed as more of a destination park.

[SonofBaconator]

45 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

Cedar Point is not a regional park.

No but without regional guests- their attendance is subject to tank. Imagine if you took Cleveland and Toledo metro guests out of their attendance numbers….yikes.

I always considered CP to be somewhere in between a destination and a regional park- much like KI. You have your regional guests who come, then you have your guests who live within a 2-3 hour radius, then you have your travelers. 

[Tr0y]

I think Regional is on a much smaller scale than bordering states. For example CP is not pulling 3.5m visitors from the Sandusky “region”, unlike Kings Island which pulls a majority of its guest from the Cincinnati “region.”

The amount of people who visit the park doesn’t matter much either. For example Disney has much higher attendance numbers, but if you scale it down to CP’s attendance levels you can see similarities in their model. They both offer multiple hotels and resorts at different price points and theming. They both also have their own respective sports complex.

You’re not making such investments in hotels and sports complexes if guest are going to hop in their car and drive home an hour away. Like what the majority of guest in regional parks do.

CP is world renowned for its record breaking coasters. It’s how they have become a destination. That is why every non kiddie coaster addition at CP has been a record breaker. They have to in order to drawl the out of town people in who make up majority of their guests. With hopes you book your stay at one of their hotels, which in my opinion is the real cash cow.

 

 

[DispatchMaster]

40 minutes ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

There is only so much Cedar Fair can do to get guests to spend more and increase per cap spending

And there is only so much CF can do to goose attendance numbers. But they can go after a different market segment that will spend more while in attendance, hence my point about it making sense to shift away from a teen-centric Haunt to a family-friendly event.

8 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

They have to in order to drawl the out of town people in who make up majority of their guests.

I suppose this depends on what you mean by "out of town", but nearly all of CP's guests are from the Cleveland, Toledo, and Metro Detroit areas. In other words, the region in which CP exists. CP is the very definition of a "regional" amusement park. That a trivial number of guests come from outside the region doesn't change that fact.

Seriously - go read John H's book, Always Cedar Point. There's a wealth of deep insider knowledge there from his decades at the park.

[Tr0y]

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

And there is only so much CF can do to goose attendance numbers. But they can go after a different market segment that will spend more while in attendance, hence my point about it making sense to shift away from a teen-centric Haunt to a family-friendly event.

I suppose this depends on what you mean by "out of town", but nearly all of CP's guests are from the Cleveland, Toledo, and Metro Detroit areas. In other words, the region in which CP exists. CP is the very definition of a "regional" amusement park. That a trivial number of guests come from outside the region doesn't change that fact.

Seriously - go read John H's book, Always Cedar Point. There's a wealth of deep insider knowledge there from his decades at the park.

Regional is very subjective. But ask yourself how many “regional” parks own 6 hotel / resorts and a sports complex? 

If CP was a “regional” park they would not be so keen on smashing multiple world records with their coaster additions, they would just build something like Orion. However they have to, in order to fill those hotel rooms. (The cash cows.)

[DispatchMaster]

It's not that subjective. The park draws basically all of its guests from the region in which it exists, unlike, say, Disney, which regularly draws folks from thousands of miles away.

That there are hotels and a beach doesn't change that. The property is resort-heavy because that's what CP started out as - a resort. First a beach in 1870, followed over the years by bathhouses and picnicking areas, then the original Grand Pavilion in the late 19th century, followed by dance and concert halls, baseball diamonds, etc. The first rides on the property didn't open until 25+ years after it was an established regional resort. The park didn't truly pivot to an amusement park until it was purchased by Boeckling nearly 30 years after the beach was the main destination for the region.

That the park leans on record-breaking rides doesn't mean they aren't a regional park. CP's tendency to break records with their coasters is a result of that being their "brand", which was established decades ago under Roose/Munger in the 70's and reinforced in the 90's and early 00's during the ridiculousness of "the coaster wars". So the park continues to lean into that branding because it's an established identity.

None of those hotels, resorts, or record-breaking rides ever changed the fact that nearly all of their guests are from the region. 

All of this and much more is covered in Always Cedar Point and other books about the park.

[Tr0y]

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

It's not that subjective. The park draws basically all of its guests from the region in which it exists, unlike, say, Disney, which regularly draws folks from thousands of miles away.

That there are hotels and a beach doesn't change that. The property is resort-heavy because that's what CP started out as - a resort. First a beach in 1870, followed over the years by bathhouses and picnicking areas, then the original Grand Pavilion in the late 19th century, followed by dance and concert halls, baseball diamonds, etc. The first rides on the property didn't open until 25+ years after it was an established regional resort. The park didn't truly pivot to an amusement park until it was purchased by Boeckling nearly 30 years after the beach was the main destination for the region.

That the park leans on record-breaking rides doesn't mean they aren't a regional park. CP's tendency to break records with their coasters is a result of that being their "brand", which was established decades ago under Roose/Munger in the 70's and reinforced in the 90's and early 00's during the ridiculousness of "the coaster wars". So the park continues to lean into that branding because it's an established identity.

None of those hotels, resorts, or record-breaking rides ever changed the fact that nearly all of their guests are from the region. 

All of this and much more is covered in Always Cedar Point and other books about the park.

I’ve moved this discussion to its own thread since it doesn’t deal with ranting about Haunt.

 

[XGatorHead 8904]

On 9/29/2023 at 10:06 AM, Ki Man said:

Haunt Scareactors - has leadership continued to do the nightly/weekly award to the house with best performances or scares? Winning that gross bloody little man statute and having it presented at the house your represented was a badge of honor and something we all strived to win every night. 

There is still a house of the night (which includes scarezones), but I haven't seen the statue this year. 

[Ki Man]

Good to hear! I thought it was interesting they didn't release any Haunt details until, what 2 weeks before the event started? I was searching all over for the list of different houses and scare zones but I guess they were planning on people coming to the event regardless of what the line up was. 

I hope the fog continues to be strong for the rest of the year!

[jbeast]

My son and I went last Saturday afternoon. Got on The Beast around 6pm and by the time we were walking down the exit, the bottom que lines were already full. Went over to Adventure Express and it was about a 30 minute wait. Then went over to Orion to be greeted by a completely full que line. It was insanely crowded more so than I can remember. The fog was in effect but it was a bit breezy. We decided it was just too crowded to enjoy any longer, so enjoyed watching people getting scared in Coney Mall (Where it was really foggy), grabbed a bite to eat and headed out. The attendance and lines were just insane. I expected it to be busy of course. But we were both taken back just how crowded the park was.