robintodd Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 13 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said: Not as long as people keep buying passes and spending money on meal plans, funpix, drink plans, posters, pins and sweets! So what you seem to be saying is that if the park makes less money, they will spend more of it on decorations? Seems counter-intuitive. One would think the more people buy the more money the park would have to spend. I would point out the new food and wine festival (where as it could have been better, they at least made an attempt), the Lanterns (yes, they cost $40 but they did a lot of work with the activation points) and the new Icee stands/revamped French Quearter were added this year. We'll see how much love the water park gets along with the new addition. But I have a feeling 2026 will see a major park install coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeastFarmer Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 6 minutes ago, robintodd said: So what you seem to be saying is that if the park makes less money, they will spend more of it on decorations? Seems counter-intuitive. One would think the more people buy the more money the park would have to spend. I would point out the new food and wine festival (where as it could have been better, they at least made an attempt), the Lanterns (yes, they cost $40 but they did a lot of work with the activation points) and the new Icee stands/revamped French Quearter were added this year. We'll see how much love the water park gets along with the new addition. But I have a feeling 2026 will see a major park install coming. Not at all what I am trying to convey. Kings Island is a very pass heavy park. People have grown up with it and have an emotional bond to it. So Six Flags can bank on a certain amount of revenue each year from inexpensive pass sales. But they make their money on per cap sales, such as what I mentioned. They start things off really well, but objectively reduce expenses in following years. For example, Grand Carnivale. The first year was incredible. But each year since, it's been chipped away. ( Notably, I think this year's parade was the best one yet, but things like the performances in China, France, Germany, Italy etc have all been axed). Live entertainment has been cut severely this year. It seems the food has improved over the course of the season ( I haven't been since June) but they were cutting corners earlier ( Sysco chicken fingers at the chicken shack vs years past hand breaded never frozen fingers sticks out to me). The French Corner was redone into a bistro/bar. Alcohol is a high margin product, hence why they installed so many. But it seems that the bars are fully staffed while drinking refill stations are either closed or understaffed, so you have long lines, empty syrup boxes and no ice. But, the passholders still show up in droves and spend money. This is out of emotional connection, loyalty, or just a good bang for the buck but with reduced quality. That's the hook that Kings Island exploits, and rightfully so. I guess what your interpretation of my thoughts are could be partially correct, however. If pass sales decline significantly, per caps also decline. Given time, with a poorer financial condition, the park could invest money into quality and capital expenditures to bring the people back in. Like everything else, this industry is cyclical. The merger and post COVID debt will certainly be a challenge in the next few years. But we will see 2017-2022 glory years again. It will just take time and patience. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robintodd Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 10 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said: Not at all what I am trying to convey. Kings Island is a very pass heavy park. People have grown up with it and have an emotional bond to it. So Six Flags can bank on a certain amount of revenue each year from inexpensive pass sales. But they make their money on per cap sales, such as what I mentioned. They start things off really well, but objectively reduce expenses in following years. For example, Grand Carnivale. The first year was incredible. But each year since, it's been chipped away. ( Notably, I think this year's parade was the best one yet, but things like the performances in China, France, Germany, Italy etc have all been axed). Live entertainment has been cut severely this year. It seems the food has improved over the course of the season ( I haven't been since June) but they were cutting corners earlier ( Sysco chicken fingers at the chicken shack vs years past hand breaded never frozen fingers sticks out to me). The French Corner was redone into a bistro/bar. Alcohol is a high margin product, hence why they installed so many. But it seems that the bars are fully staffed while drinking refill stations are either closed or understaffed, so you have long lines, empty syrup boxes and no ice. But, the passholders still show up in droves and spend money. This is out of emotional connection, loyalty, or just a good bang for the buck but with reduced quality. That's the hook that Kings Island exploits, and rightfully so. I guess what your interpretation of my thoughts are could be partially correct, however. If pass sales decline significantly, per caps also decline. Given time, with a poorer financial condition, the park could invest money into quality and capital expenditures to bring the people back in. Like everything else, this industry is cyclical. The merger and post COVID debt will certainly be a challenge in the next few years. But we will see 2017-2022 glory years again. It will just take time and patience. Thanks for clearing that up. I can see your side now. The perfomances in China, France, etc. were axed for covid. Maybe they had a problem booking them back or the people wanted more money, didn't think it was worth their time, etc. I think there may be more into that decision than at first glance. The China one seemed popular but if only 1 or 2 draws crowds then what do you do with the others that don't? Would not seem right to only have a country or two with performers and the rest not have them. For me the lack of tasting cards was a bigger blunder. I think they realsize that and they will be back next year if I had to guess. I do think they definitely need someone on a cart who just goes around and takes care of the drink/icee stations all day. They could paint it up with "Hydration Department" and really have fun with it. It would show they are actively trying to resolve the problem and they could have icee and Coke all over it to increase visibility and therefore sales. For that matter, sell the drink plans from it. There's alot you can do. I would guess you would only have to send it out 2 or 4 times a day depending on how busy the park is. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedarPointer Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 12 hours ago, robintodd said: So what you seem to be saying is that if the park makes less money, they will spend more of it on decorations? Seems counter-intuitive. One would think the more people buy the more money the park would have to spend. I would point out the new food and wine festival (where as it could have been better, they at least made an attempt), the Lanterns (yes, they cost $40 but they did a lot of work with the activation points) and the new Icee stands/revamped French Quearter were added this year. We'll see how much love the water park gets along with the new addition. But I have a feeling 2026 will see a major park install coming. What new Icee stands? It took them nearly the whole season to manage to add two (2) machines in Rivertown. But somehow they had no trouble sourcing the booze slushie machines for Mike's many new bars. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr0y Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 50 minutes ago, CedarPointer said: What new Icee stands? It took them nearly the whole season to manage to add two (2) machines in Rivertown. But somehow they had no trouble sourcing the booze slushie machines for Mike's many new bars. All these complaints about KI has Mike on a bender. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenthodge Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 On 10/12/2024 at 6:19 PM, BeeastFarmer said: Not as long as people keep buying passes and spending money on meal plans, funpix, drink plans, posters, pins and sweets! True, true. And Saturday crowds proved it. Face it kids, there’s no incentive for more effort when the gate keeps spinning like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenthodge Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 22 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said: Not at all what I am trying to convey. Kings Island is a very pass heavy park. People have grown up with it and have an emotional bond to it. So Six Flags can bank on a certain amount of revenue each year from inexpensive pass sales. But they make their money on per cap sales, such as what I mentioned. They start things off really well, but objectively reduce expenses in following years. For example, Grand Carnivale. The first year was incredible. But each year since, it's been chipped away. ( Notably, I think this year's parade was the best one yet, but things like the performances in China, France, Germany, Italy etc have all been axed). Live entertainment has been cut severely this year. It seems the food has improved over the course of the season ( I haven't been since June) but they were cutting corners earlier ( Sysco chicken fingers at the chicken shack vs years past hand breaded never frozen fingers sticks out to me). The French Corner was redone into a bistro/bar. Alcohol is a high margin product, hence why they installed so many. But it seems that the bars are fully staffed while drinking refill stations are either closed or understaffed, so you have long lines, empty syrup boxes and no ice. But, the passholders still show up in droves and spend money. This is out of emotional connection, loyalty, or just a good bang for the buck but with reduced quality. That's the hook that Kings Island exploits, and rightfully so. I guess what your interpretation of my thoughts are could be partially correct, however. If pass sales decline significantly, per caps also decline. Given time, with a poorer financial condition, the park could invest money into quality and capital expenditures to bring the people back in. Like everything else, this industry is cyclical. The merger and post COVID debt will certainly be a challenge in the next few years. But we will see 2017-2022 glory years again. It will just take time and patience. KI has the blessing and the curse a lot of times of being one of the flagship “prototype” parks where a lot of event concepts are tested. Lots of times the “concept year” has tons of corporate support and resources put into it to see what works, what doesn’t, and what can be streamlined for scaling to other parks. KI having a huge local, pass holder base of customers who regularly return works against that since a large % of your base will attend the event year after year and notice the big cuts (often most from year 1-2) where other, destination type parks with a customer base on a 3-4 year cycle won’t notice that as much. Even local park management is aware and frustrated by that as it leaves them “to blame” in the years that follow when they are then charged with hitting certain budget metrics that may have been much higher during the concept roll out phase. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenthodge Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 On 10/12/2024 at 6:31 PM, disco2000 said: And $40+ lanterns Which put behind a paywall a lot of the effects that used to be just part of the experience. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2000 Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 5 hours ago, brenthodge said: True, true. And Saturday crowds proved it. Face it kids, there’s no incentive for more effort when the gate keeps spinning like that. And by many social media posts, many feel KI's Halloween event is better than CPs event this year by a lot, so it appears CP is taking a page out of the KI book on how to cut back and do just enough, and they have no problem flooding the park with guests either. I saw pictures people posted over the weekend of the CP sign at 1pm saying their main parking lot was full. As long as people show up regardless, to what many feel is too crowded to begin with, what incentive is there to improve the offering... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robintodd Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 5 hours ago, brenthodge said: Which put behind a paywall a lot of the effects that used to be just part of the experience. Which effects are you speaking of? I don't remember hearing any original Phantom Theatre sounds, Poe's poems, Police car, etc. in years past. But I get it, Disney and Universal do a thing and it's cool but when KI does it it's a "money grab". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robintodd Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 16 hours ago, CedarPointer said: What new Icee stands? It took them nearly the whole season to manage to add two (2) machines in Rivertown. But somehow they had no trouble sourcing the booze slushie machines for Mike's many new bars. The booze machines were planned for from last year. I believe the supply/demand for the icees forced their hands on getting new machines. I also think they added another icee machine in the Ice Scream zone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2000 Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 52 minutes ago, robintodd said: The booze machines were planned for from last year. I believe the supply/demand for the icees forced their hands on getting new machines. I also think they added another icee machine in the Ice Scream zone. Regardless of when it was planned, it is evident walking around that they staff the alcohol stands and leave drink refill stations closed. Best example is the new alcohol stand by the train is open yet the drink refill station 30 feet behind it is closed more times than not. As terpy used to say, they already have your money....so they will open a stand that has no pass add-on opportunities first as that is the one bringing in money compared to a long purchased drink plan. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeastFarmer Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 1 hour ago, robintodd said: The booze machines were planned for from last year. I believe the supply/demand for the icees forced their hands on getting new machines. I also think they added another icee machine in the Ice Scream zone. They rolled out the Premium drink plan in 2023 for 2024. By the end of December, they knew the amount they could forecast for 2024. They were woefully unprepared for the Icee roll out. That was either a willfull lack of budgeting sense or ineptitude. Six Flags and KI do have some pretty intelligent folks, so I doubt it was ineptitude. It speaks volumes that they build a bar in a week or two (The French Corner Reverie) but they cant complete a straight forward drink stand by The (Sysco) Chicken Shack 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedarPointer Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 31 minutes ago, BeeastFarmer said: They rolled out the Premium drink plan in 2023 for 2024. By the end of December, they knew the amount they could forecast for 2024. They were woefully unprepared for the Icee roll out. That was either a willfull lack of budgeting sense or ineptitude. Six Flags and KI do have some pretty intelligent folks, so I doubt it was ineptitude. It speaks volumes that they build a bar in a week or two (The French Corner Reverie) but they cant complete a straight forward drink stand by The (Sysco) Chicken Shack Other parks added plenty of Icee stands, so that pretty much confirms it's an issue with park leadership and not corporate. These days, it feels like, once they have your money for the pass, they actively don't want you to visit, especially with how Pass "Perks" always seems to have the best "perks" reserved for those with only 1 or 2 visits. It kind of reminds me of the "Declining By Degrees" series Kevin Yee used to write about Disney's death by a million cuts. Back on the subject of Haunt, it does feel pretty off-putting that the main "new" thing this year is locked behind a paywall. Allowing them in the mazes also kind of ruins the experience for everyone else, so it kind of feels like how the no boo necklaces have degraded the experience outside the mazes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr0y Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 31 minutes ago, CedarPointer said: Back on the subject of Haunt, it does feel pretty off-putting that the main "new" thing this year is locked behind a paywall. Allowing them in the mazes also kind of ruins the experience for everyone else, so it kind of feels like how the no boo necklaces have degraded the experience outside the mazes. They no longer allow the lanterns to be on inside of the mazes, the signage was updated to reflect that: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chad_1138 Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 Speaking to the lack of drink stands, we were at the park Saturday night, probably one of the busiest days/nights of the year. Walking through Rivertown (wall to wall people) and, to no surprise, both the Freestyle and the drink stand by LaRosa's were closed. Oh, but the bar right next to the Freestyle was open... On a plus side, we did snag some hot chocolate Friday night with our Drink Plan+. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmartCat7162 Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 1 hour ago, BeeastFarmer said: It speaks volumes that they build a bar in a week or two (The French Corner Reverie) but they cant complete a straight forward drink stand by The (Sysco) Chicken Shack I was speaking with someone who works at the park and they said that the French corner bar was planned to be done for the start of the 2024 season. That of course did not end up happening and also two weeks for them to remodel the bar is just not true at all. I believe someone posted French corner was closed for renovations for at least a month or two before it reopened. For the French corner bar all they did was remove the center island and put in the new curved island to the side probably a prefabricated piece while the drink stand is from the ground up. Also I feel like the French corner bar upgrade makes the overall restaurant feel a lot nicer in general and has a more open feel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyGuy4KI Posted October 14 Author Share Posted October 14 The KIC Haunt Video. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standbyme Posted October 16 Share Posted October 16 On 10/14/2024 at 11:17 AM, robintodd said: But I get it, Disney and Universal do a thing and it's cool but when KI does it it's a "money grab". I don’t favoritism…as far as I’m concerned, it’s a money grab whoever does it…but no one tops Disney for grabbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenthodge Posted October 17 Share Posted October 17 On 10/14/2024 at 12:17 PM, robintodd said: Which effects are you speaking of? I don't remember hearing any original Phantom Theatre sounds, Poe's poems, Police car, etc. in years past. But I get it, Disney and Universal do a thing and it's cool but when KI does it it's a "money grab". Sorcerers of the Kingdom was free. Agent Ps world showcase adventure, free. Yes, they added things, but they also took a lot of things that were originally free effects and monetized them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chad_1138 Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 The fog is rolling tonight!! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robintodd Posted October 27 Share Posted October 27 Not sure if this has been mentioned but I'd like to aknowledge the huge improvement to Cornstalkers this season. It's practically a new maze and I absolutely love the upgrade. Last weekend my grandson and I noticed a small burlap "sock puppet" with eyes and a mouth on the hand of a scareacter in a corn stalk suit. It was simply funny that people would look at the puppet and the actor would pop at them. I felt compelled to tell the yellow shirt I saw at the entrance that I appreciated the extra effort that brought a smile to our faces. Well played. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chad_1138 Posted October 27 Share Posted October 27 1 hour ago, robintodd said: Not sure if this has been mentioned but I'd like to aknowledge the huge improvement to Cornstalkers this season. It's practically a new maze and I absolutely love the upgrade. Last weekend my grandson and I noticed a small burlap "sock puppet" with eyes and a mouth on the hand of a scareacter in a corn stalk suit. It was simply funny that people would look at the puppet and the actor would pop at them. I felt compelled to tell the yellow shirt I saw at the entrance that I appreciated the extra effort that brought a smile to our faces. Well played. We saw the sock puppet Friday night as well. Totally agree with you about the maze this year. I think it is our #2 behind Hotel St. Michelle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortex1987 Posted October 27 Share Posted October 27 Some photos from my trip with my brother and his daughter yesterday!!! Guess my favorite part!!! Lol. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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