Kentucky Kingdom

[FOFreak]

Maybe I am over-reacting. How much do you guys believe that KK re-opening would hurt Holiday World?

[The Interpreter]

Not very. I'm much more concerned how much family discord, distraction, and legal battles will harm Holiday World.

[sccard01]

I'm not conflicted... I flat out do not want KK to reopen.

As a Louisville, Kentucky resident, I don't want my taxes to be used to re-open a park that has proven over and over to be nothing but a hands-off babysitter for uncontrollable west-enders on the busline. It was, and will be, a park heavily attended by troublemakers.

We've heard how it will be bigger, better & wetter from Ed-no-so-smart-Hart. But he's not said one thing about how much "safer" it will be. Why? Because he's not focused on that. At least when HW was involved, they were inent on improving the reputation and ensuring safety. Hart hasn't even acknowledged there was a safety issue to begin with.

The whole thing is a joke - the reason local people avoided KK was that it held a bad perception. Seriously - in latter years there were at least 3 cases of rape/molestation that took place inside the park!!! Mark my words - if re-opened, it will hold that same reputation within 1 season. It's ridiculous to see this as anything but the 3rd time at the rodeo. Fool us once - shame on us... fool us twice...

Astroworld had the same issue - and Houston bulldozed it. They were smart...

Shaggy

I really didn't appreciate this comment, also what do you mean by west ender? Teens? or Black People? Tell me.

Also tell me when has Ed been a failure at operating Kentucky Kingdom?

I will be proud to send this complaint to Ed Hart. I am sure this will motivate him even more to prove YOU wrong.

[The Interpreter]

Money drives Ed Hart.

Plain and simple.

Comments on Internet message boards shouldn't add impetus to a well thought out business plan. Then again, banks are HAPPY to make loans on such plans, but Kentucky Kingdom couldn't get a loan in the full amount sought, even with state subsidies and using state land as collateral. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

[RollerNut]

About much as Carowinds affects Emerald Pointe in Greensboro, NC. Translation, enough that the parks know the future of eachother but not enough that they cant coexist.

[Creed Bratton]

Hart is adamant that when the park is running again it will go over as well as when he operated it in the early 1990s.

From this article: http://www.wave3.com/story/21945539/changes-made-to-budget-to-get-kentucky-kingdom-open-on-time

Now Shaggy, question... you said this:

As a Louisville, Kentucky resident, I don't want my taxes to be used to

re-open a park that has proven over and over to be nothing but a

hands-off babysitter for uncontrollable west-enders on the busline. It

was, and will be, a park heavily attended by troublemakers.

What was the reputation in the 1990s? Was it a baby sitter for uncontrollable west-enders on the busline? Was it heavily attended by troublemakers?

I've never been to KK, but I find it hard to believe it was always like how you perceived it to be. Times were different back when Hart operated the park previously....times changed with the operators. To say that a park that was ran by the most recent operater (SIX) is how the proposed new park will run is a bit pre-mature. Different operators have different security policies and codes of conduct. I highly doubt that Hart would allow for any activies that "happened" (I use quotations because I don't remember hearing about any of them until recently and/or ever) with his business frame of mind (bad publicity = bad business).

Here is the kicker though...Kings Island, Cedar Point and other parks are hands-off babysitters, sometimes for uncontrollable kids, and trouble makers. Think about it, how many times at the park do you see a group of kids between the ages of 10-15 by themselves? I saw it a ton while working at the park. I've seen numerous kids trying to start fights because someone "line-jumped them." I've seen a ton of kids placing graffiti at the parks by carving into fence posts, queue line rails and decorations, sticking their gum on walls, etc. When someone tries to stop them, generally late teens, employees, adults, the kids run their mouths trying to cause trouble, trying to act like the big man of their group, etc. The kids do not have any respect, anywhere no matter the park, so I wouldn't say it's an isolated thing at KK. If the things are true, that is truely tragic and should not have been that way, but as I said, the operator of the park is at fault....not the park itself. I truly believe the success of parks comes from various resources..but one resource is the consumers/visitors/guests/etc. When they take pride in their park, how it's operated instead of harping on how things used to be and when they start looking at how the park can grow by what they do while at the park, things are going to be a bit better. When it comes to reopening KK, if there is constant doubt and negativeness from the get-go, those people will only see the bad. It's all about perspective.

[Shaggy]

I'm not conflicted... I flat out do not want KK to reopen.

As a Louisville, Kentucky resident, I don't want my taxes to be used to re-open a park that has proven over and over to be nothing but a hands-off babysitter for uncontrollable west-enders on the busline. It was, and will be, a park heavily attended by troublemakers.

We've heard how it will be bigger, better & wetter from Ed-no-so-smart-Hart. But he's not said one thing about how much "safer" it will be. Why? Because he's not focused on that. At least when HW was involved, they were inent on improving the reputation and ensuring safety. Hart hasn't even acknowledged there was a safety issue to begin with.

The whole thing is a joke - the reason local people avoided KK was that it held a bad perception. Seriously - in latter years there were at least 3 cases of rape/molestation that took place inside the park!!! Mark my words - if re-opened, it will hold that same reputation within 1 season. It's ridiculous to see this as anything but the 3rd time at the rodeo. Fool us once - shame on us... fool us twice...

Astroworld had the same issue - and Houston bulldozed it. They were smart...

Shaggy

I really didn't appreciate this comment, also what do you mean by west ender? Teens? or Black People? Tell me.

Also tell me when has Ed been a failure at operating Kentucky Kingdom?

I will be proud to send this complaint to Ed Hart. I am sure this will motivate him even more to prove YOU wrong.

I meant troublemakers.... be it teens, blacks, whites, hispanics whatever.

Kentucky Kingdom was an inner city park with inner city problems. That's not going to change. It's past speaks for itself... simply google things like "Kentucky Kingdom rape", or "Fight at Kentucky Kingdom", or "Kentucky Kingdom molestation."

Hart has neglected to obtain the thing the park needs the most - the support and backing of Louisville citizens. He can score every loan or tax incentive he wants. He can promise large rides, a bigger waterpark, blah blah blah. But all of it is moot if the public isn't on baord. If he wants the support of Louisville - then he has to promise a park clean of the trouble that existed before. But as Terp said - Ed Hart is in it for money. He's a businessman, and wants to turn a profit. To think he's in it for the "heart" would be naive.

Every one of my statements and sentiments are things that I stand behind. What I typed is no different than what I'd say to Mr Hart directly. Bottom line, I don't think my taxes should be used to grant the park another turn at bat.

Folks can sugarcoat all they want.... I wont. The reality with KK was, and is: the upper income families in Louisville and surrounding areas avoided the park because it was considered a hangout for hoods. People looked down their noses at the park because it has a perception of being a gathering place for riff-raff. These same people are willing to drive a longer distance for a perceived safe, wholesome family experience - hence HW's immense success.

Had this been a project to relocate KK, then I'd be all over it. The area Southest of Louisville, on I-64 towards Lexington is on the verge of booming. Within the next 5 years, the Simpsonville exit will have been developed much like that of Monroe Ohio. (A large Outlet Mall and travel destination project is in beginning stages.) The state spent millions expanding I-64 and the Simpsonville exit/overpass for the future growth. This, IMO, would be a defining location for a park in Kentucky and I would have been carrying a banner in support.

But no... instead we get to look forward to a refurb of a land-locked, (historically) under-performing and trouble-layden park.

Hart is adamant that when the park is running again it will go over as well as when he operated it in the early 1990s.

From this article: http://www.wave3.com/story/21945539/changes-made-to-budget-to-get-kentucky-kingdom-open-on-time

Now Shaggy, question... you said this:

>>As a Louisville, Kentucky resident, I don't want my taxes to be used to

re-open a park that has proven over and over to be nothing but a

hands-off babysitter for uncontrollable west-enders on the busline. It

was, and will be, a park heavily attended by troublemakers.

What was the reputation in the 1990s? Was it a baby sitter for uncontrollable west-enders on the busline? Was it heavily attended by troublemakers?

I've never been to KK, but I find it hard to believe it was always like how you perceived it to be. Times were different back when Hart operated the park previously....times changed with the operators. To say that a park that was ran by the most recent operater (SIX) is how the proposed new park will run is a bit pre-mature. Different operators have different security policies and codes of conduct. I highly doubt that Hart would allow for any activies that "happened" (I use quotations because I don't remember hearing about any of them until recently and/or ever) with his business frame of mind (bad publicity = bad business).

Here is the kicker though...Kings Island, Cedar Point and other parks are hands-off babysitters, sometimes for uncontrollable kids, and trouble makers. Think about it, how many times at the park do you see a group of kids between the ages of 10-15 by themselves? I saw it a ton while working at the park. I've seen numerous kids trying to start fights because someone "line-jumped them." I've seen a ton of kids placing graffiti at the parks by carving into fence posts, queue line rails and decorations, sticking their gum on walls, etc. When someone tries to stop them, generally late teens, employees, adults, the kids run their mouths trying to cause trouble, trying to act like the big man of their group, etc. The kids do not have any respect, anywhere no matter the park, so I wouldn't say it's an isolated thing at KK. If the things are true, that is truely tragic and should not have been that way, but as I said, the operator of the park is at fault....not the park itself. I truly believe the success of parks comes from various resources..but one resource is the consumers/visitors/guests/etc. When they take pride in their park, how it's operated instead of harping on how things used to be and when they start looking at how the park can grow by what they do while at the park, things are going to be a bit better. When it comes to reopening KK, if there is constant doubt and negativeness from the get-go, those people will only see the bad. It's all about perspective.

Read it again...

"The incentives will be paid out over ten years and are based on performance. Hart is adamant that when the park is running again it will go over as well as when he operated it in the early 1990s.

"We ran a very successful facility," Hart said. "We built over 1.3 million in attendance, bringing hundreds of thousands of people, visitors, in for overnight stays."

He said he ran a successful facility - referring to money (Imagine that!) he didn't speak of the guests experience.

...and experience is everything. Public perception is everything. Postive word of mouth is crucial to the success of any business. KK has a long way to go before the tarnished public opinion can be swayed... no matter how much "biggah, bettah or wettah" it is.

[The Interpreter]

http://www.coaster-net.com/news/2078-kentucky-kingdom-moving-forward/

[Gordon Bombay]

Shaggy says it best once again!

[AintNutinElse2Do]

Just to be fair Shaggy, you can take nearly any park name and google it with rape, molestation, fights, and such and get results even our beloved Kings Island. That said I also wish this had been more of a relocation project instead, however I wish the park the best of luck and will gladly patronize the park if/when it reopens.

[SonofBaconator]

This is a random question but do you guys think KK would make a good Cedar Fair park?

[AintNutinElse2Do]

This is a random question but do you guys think KK would make a good Cedar Fair park?

As a park, no. As a dry ride donor, no. As a water park donor, absolutely. I'd still like to see the park open though.

[The Interpreter]

Cedar Fair recently had the opportunity to respond to a proposal for Kentucky Kingdom. So did Six Flags. Blackstone. Disney. SeaWorld. and the rest of the world. Only two parties even looked at the park in person. No one responded. Except Ed Hart.

Who has had very long, uncharacteristic spells of being quieter than a church mouse.

April 27.

It's coming.

[violakat03]

Just to be fair Shaggy, you can take nearly any park name and google it with rape, molestation, fights, and such and get results even our beloved Kings Island. That said I also wish this had been more of a relocation project instead, however I wish the park the best of luck and will gladly patronize the park if/when it reopens.

You pointed out exactly what I've been thinking. These incidents occur at every park. I've been in the park when a huge fight broke out at KI. Molestation, stalking, rape, kidnapping, drug use ... it happens at every park. Some makes it to court, some doesn't. Some makes the papers, some doesn't. Unaccompanied minors are at EVERY park. When I was in security at KI, I handled a call involving two unaccompanied kids ages 7 and 9 who were spitting on people. Their mom thought it was totally ok to just leave them at the park all day while she went to work. I think Six Flags didn't keep a handle on things as far as one, publicity, and two, keeping a security presence to get rid of the people causing problems throughout the day. I'm not saying that there's any way to keep them out completely, but simply removing troublemakers from the property for the day keeps the general public from realizing how many troublemakers there are around them.

As an addition to that, Six Flags America outside of DC has a similar reputation to the one SFKK had. If you read Trip Advisor and similar travel sites, the comments are very negative, talking about the gang activity and other such trouble in the park. However, these comments are usually from people who by their own admission have not been in the park for over five years - and Six Flags has been cleaning up that park. I visited it numerous times in 2009 and 2010 and never saw any of the things that it's reputed to harbor. The reputation is still suffering because it got so bad in the first place that people aren't going back to see what has changed. It will take time to recover from that, but I think it can and will. And I feel the same about Kentucky Kingdom - it will take time to shake off the reputation it developed in the early and mid 2000's, but with enough time and effort it can rebound.

[TheBEASTunchained]

I completely agree with you Violakat03, You make a good point there.......

And I don't know about you guys but I sure would like to hear something from Hart right about now.......

[The Interpreter]

By or on April 27.

And then what you may hear is the time for financing has been extended.

If things were as certain as Hart indicated earlier, crowing would be going on now, from the politicians to the deal makers to Hart and Co. That it isn't speaks much louder than Hart's earlier words.

Even if the deal completes, there is much to be done before the gates open to the riding/sliding public.

[sccard01]

Well, I went pass the park this passed Thursday. The park is starting to look prep up for renovations as dumpsters inside the park which usually sits empty are becoming full. There are construction vehicles behind Chang's old footprint on a lot which is the KFEC property. But I am not sure if it is for the park or just for something else because construction vehicles pop up on the lot several times a year.

[The Interpreter]

Financing NOT in Place; Is Expected; 60 Day Extension Of Walkaway Period Requested:

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20130424/NEWS01/304240088/Kentucky-Kingdom-New-operators-seek-more-time-raise-money

As I surmised earlier, bank will NOT lend full amount requested for this deal...

[IBEW_Sparky]

Whats that I hear off in the distance.... the sound of footsteps and the gate of an empty KK swinging?

[Dieseltech20]

I hear someone digging through the silverware drawer for a Fork.

[The Interpreter]

If things really ARE in place for the financing, and the investors really are going to make up for any "voids" in financing, why exactly is it that Mr. Hart and Co. want a 60 day extension of the period that they can walk away from this deal? Why not just sign the lease and get on with it?

Oh, how many times has he told us the financing is in place? If that were true, why the extension? Unless Hart and Co. think they may USE the walk-away option, why bother to ask for it?

And does anybody think the Fair Board has any reasonable option BUT to grant the option? More importantly, does the Governor and/or Finance Cabinet have to agree to this?

[Creed Bratton]

Serious question, does the extension have to do with the initial cost being more than thought?

[The Interpreter]

I'm sure Hart and Co. would also say yes. But they have said that the investors will foot the additional cost. It is clear there is a possibility in the investors' minds that they will in fact walk away, otherwise there would be no need for the extension.

[PhantomTheater]

And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

John Denne

The bell tolls for KK.

[Oldiesmann]

Fair Board approves 60-day lease extension

http://www.wdrb.com/story/22076642/fair-board-approves-60-day-lease-extension-for-kentucky-kingdom-developers

The chairman of the Kentucky State Fair Board says he's more than 99% sure Kentucky Kingdom will re-open next May.

But first the board had to give the investors more to time to get the money they need.

The investors, led by Ed Hart, now have 60 more days to secure $45-million to re-open the park. And there apparently have been some tense negotiations over the past week, with the future of the park on the line.

Under the original lease terms, the investors were to kick in $20 million of their own cash and secure a $25 million bank loan.

Problem is, the bank would only loan $15 million.

The apparent solution; the group led by Ed Hart has obtained $10-million from an unnamed secondary investor. But the parties needed more time to finalize the deal.

Today, they got it. The Fair Board approving a 60-day extension of the lease, which was to expire at the end of this month.

[Gordon Bombay]

So we have to wait sixty more days for Ed Hart to say "Nevermind, lol."

[westcoaster]

I like the park the positiveness of trying to reopen I'm ready for a auction and bulldozer, if it truly was so great to operate there maybe six flags would stay, I think at this point farther out in louisville away from goverment, the state fair board etc.

[AintNutinElse2Do]

Is Hart and company currently paying on a lease? If so extending the walkout period is a no brainer, might as well bring in some money. Not like there's another party ready to jump in.

[The Interpreter]

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20130425/NEWS01/304250060/Kentucky-Kingdom-deal-revision-will-get-more-developer-money-into-project

The bank is requiring Hart & Co. to put 50 percent more equity up, while reducing the amount it will lend by 25 percent. This tells us the bank did not think it had a good enough collateral interest in the original proposal. Put another way, it thought its risk of loss was too great. In addition, Hart has gotten at least some concessions from the Commonwealth.

There is no way to spin these recent developments as positives for the park's future outlook.

[IBEW_Sparky]

Maybe Hart should hire Matt Eckert, Im sure he could find a way to make it a positive spin. Jus' sayin'.