Decoding 2020

[RuthlessAirtime]

1 hour ago, jcovelli said:

While not a roller coaster engineer, I am an engineer (marine), and I don't see anything wrong with this design.. and in fact this looks like it would be a pretty fun element! Especially if launched just fast enough to barely make it over the top (aka TTD and Kingda Ka).  However, I believe the support columns and footers would be different than anything we've seen to support that structure. 

There’s nothing wrong with his design on paper, it’s just a pretty certain thing that’s not what KI is building 

[SonofBaconator]

All of a sudden everyone on this forum became astrologists

[fryoj]

Catching up with this thread.....

22 hours ago, RuthlessAirtime said:

Now that I think about an actual pro to this, what if it's just at 300-310 and they're going for an airtime record? Think nothing but the world's tallest, most sustained ejector airtime hills. Back to back to back to back. Like a steel El Toro. That would be unbelievable. 

I am saying this only because the layout suggests it could be the case.

From the leaked plan, the first hill is a highly banked, or overbanked, turn. The second hill is the treble clef element. So the first half will likely not have airtime. 

 

17 hours ago, JubJester said:

There is a clear difference with the station and the track when it comes to amount of detail. That's what I was pointing out.

Well the station is a building with walls, electric, queue lines, control room etc. The rest of the ride is literally just track, rails, supports and footers. There is obviously going to be more involved with the station. They've drawn everything they can draw on the rest of the ride. 

 

12 hours ago, corn4ahead said:

Cedar Point has something that KI will never have. And that's Lake Erie. 

 

I think it's tough to say KI is better than CP. They are just different. They each thrive in their own way. One is regional, one is a destination. Apples to oranges. 

 

They will also have the free dinner on the coasters nightly. Nothing like eating bugs!

 

9 hours ago, medford said:

But why was it hoped for 45 degrees?  I always assumed that is the angle on Fury and Leviathan, but haven't seen anything to confirm that.  My only point is why would the lift angle be less than fury or leviathan?

 

As far as playing games; its not that tough, if they are inclined.  Submit a set of plans to get approved, then immediately submit a set of "engineered changes" to the same documents.  There is a fee involved, but resubmitting plans is a normal process in construction; if KI wanted to, they could, would the city go along while still not bending any rules????  No clue, but mainly I was interested in that lift angle and how people got to 45 degrees.  If Leviathan and Fury were both 40 degrees, then I'd expect this one to be at least that as well, while perhaps hoping for something steeper.

I think the 45 degrees was somewhere between urban Legend and just people making uneducated guesses about what Other coaster's lift angles are. That becomes "fury has a 45 degree angle, so this will too". That has been debunked on both cases. 

They'd have to also pay an engineer/architect to do the math and design those fake plans. All of the math in those data sheets is accurate and matches real world elevations. So that involves paying a surveyor to survey those spots. Pretty expensive for practical joke. I don't think for one second that the city plans are fake. I can fathom the whole plan leak being an internal fake. Even though, at this point, it was executed poorly if it was intentional. But the city plans are going to be what's built. 

7 hours ago, Theoutdoorkid107 said:

*Not drawn to scale *

 

 

[bjcolglazier]

I hope it's a stand-up coaster. Son of King Cobra. 

[DiamondBanshee]

I don’t feel like quoting, but someone above said the overbank and treble clef would not have airtime. From riding Fury, I can tell you that if it is low to the ground overbank type turn (as on CoassterMac’s coaster) there will be sideways airtime. The treble clef will almost definitely have airtime. Imo these are the elements that make fury so great. They give sideways floatjector which is unlike anything I’ve ever felt. They are absolutely incredible and I’d be more than happy if our coaster had these two elements with this airtime.


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[thatguyfromohio]

I don’t feel like quoting, but someone above said the overbank and treble clef would not have airtime. From riding Fury, I can tell you that if it is low to the ground overbank type turn (as on CoassterMac’s coaster) there will be sideways airtime. The treble clef will almost definitely have airtime. Imo these are the elements that make fury so great. They give sideways floatjector which is unlike anything I’ve ever felt. They are absolutely incredible and I’d be more than happy if our coaster had these two elements with this airtime.


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That floatjector feeling you can get while riding SV at CP, it executes it very well


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[DiamondBanshee]

^Actually I don’t even think that encapsulates what happens on fury. It’s such an odd feeling but it’s absolutely amazing


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[thatguyfromohio]

-image from google-

This hill here gives an amazing feeling


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[DustinTheNow]

6 minutes ago, thatguyfromohio said:

-image from google-

This hill here gives an amazing feeling


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Best (unpowered) element on a roller coaster! 

[RuthlessAirtime]

3 minutes ago, DustinTheNow said:

Best (unpowered) element on a roller coaster! 

^ That outer bank turn feels like it's going to launch me clear across Lake Erie every time.

[brendan71388]

35 minutes ago, DiamondBanshee said:

I don’t feel like quoting, but someone above said the overbank and treble clef would not have airtime. From riding Fury, I can tell you that if it is low to the ground overbank type turn (as on CoassterMac’s coaster) there will be sideways airtime. The treble clef will almost definitely have airtime. Imo these are the elements that make fury so great. They give sideways floatjector which is unlike anything I’ve ever felt. They are absolutely incredible and I’d be more than happy if our coaster had these two elements with this airtime.


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I second this. I've not ridden nearly as many coasters as most enthusiasts but was fortunate enough to make a trip to the Carolinas last summer for the sole purpose of riding Fury. Every time I rode it I grew to appreciate it even more for the several instances you're talking about where you feel like you're going to be throw off the side of the train on those quick twists and turns. It's what separated it from MF for me. 

[befat]

16 hours ago, MDMC01 said:

Not to play devil's advocate, but... Skyrush and Hershey's 2020 Coaster will coexisit in the same park (according to RCDB, Skyrush is a hyper at 200 ft.). I'm thinking it'll be a giga, but you never know.

Would you believe that Kings Island once operated 2 hyper coasters at the same time? The second was only 12 feet taller and less than 2 mph faster. The general consensus is that it was 100% better though. So we would all be happy with a ride that’s 242 feet tall and 82 mph, right?

[matt112986]

7 minutes ago, befat said:

Would you believe that Kings Island once operated 2 hyper coasters at the same time? The second was only 12 feet taller and less than 2 mph faster. The general consensus is that it was 100% better though. So we would all be happy with a ride that’s 242 feet tall and 82 mph, right?

Quite a bit more difference between a woodie and a B&M hyper than two B&M hypers.

[FoF96"]

^ For like half a season... what’s different at these other parks with multiple hypers are that they’re from completely different manufacturers.  Find me a park with 2 Hyper coasters that are the same model and manufacturer. That’s what would make Kings Islands an odd choice if that were to happen

8 minutes ago, befat said:

Would you believe that Kings Island once operated 2 hyper coasters at the same time? The second was only 12 feet taller and less than 2 mph faster. The general consensus is that it was 100% better though. So we would all be happy with a ride that’s 242 feet tall and 82 mph, right?

 

[fryoj]

7 minutes ago, FoF96" said:

^ For like half a season... what’s different at these other parks with multiple hypers are that they’re from completely different manufacturers.  Find me a park with 2 Hyper coasters that are the same model and manufacturer. That’s what would make Kings Islands an odd choice if that were to happen

 

Canadas Wonderland has two B&M Megacoasters. 

[FoF96"]

^ yes that are differentiated by the fact that one is in the 200ft range and one is in the 300ft range.  I’m looking for a park that has 2 of the same make, model, and manufacturer that are both in the 200ft range.

[befat]

8 minutes ago, FoF96" said:

^ For like half a season... what’s different at these other parks with multiple hypers are that they’re from completely different manufacturers.  Find me a park with 2 Hyper coasters that are the same model and manufacturer. That’s what would make Kings Islands an odd choice if that were to happen

 

For the record, I think this coaster will be over 300ft. Cedar Fair took a risk at Canada’s Wonderland. (Rumor has it, Leviathan was slated for Knotts.) The risk obviously paid off since Carowinds repeated the model. Having riden Fury, I have high hopes for this coaster. It will be interesting to see what they do with the second element since MF, Leviathan, and Fury all make a turn after the first drop. This one seems to go straight for a while. It will need something other than an airtime hill to make it feel different than Diamondback.

[SonofBaconator]

@fryoj you seem pretty knowledgeable about how blueprints work. Can you confirm, based off the leaked prints, whether 300ft will be peaked or not? You might have said it earlier but its a long thread.

[WhereDidBeastieGo]

2 hours ago, FoF96" said:

^ yes that are differentiated by the fact that one is in the 200ft range and one is in the 300ft range.  I’m looking for a park that has 2 of the same make, model, and manufacturer that are both in the 200ft range.

Is there some sort of database with this info readily available that anyone knows of?  Would be nice to run numbers on things like this, maybe give us a better guesstimate...

[AdventureExpress35]

13 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

All of a sudden everyone on this forum became astrologists

Astronomy is one of the many tools of the devil

 

-Bobby Boucher’s mom in “The Waterboy”

[shizzzon]

14 minutes ago, AdventureExpress35 said:

Astronomy is one of the many tools of the devil

**Astrology**

Astronomy helps our culture advance the way we are.

[MDMC01]

8 hours ago, befat said:

Would you believe that Kings Island once operated 2 hyper coasters at the same time? The second was only 12 feet taller and less than 2 mph faster. The general consensus is that it was 100% better though. So we would all be happy with a ride that’s 242 feet tall and 82 mph, right?

I totally forgot about the fact that Diamondback and Son of Beast once coexisted! However, I guess it was different as SoB was wooden and Diamondback is a Steel coaster... oh, well, we shall see what happens!

[BSBMX]

6 hours ago, WhereDidBeastieGo said:

Is there some sort of database with this info readily available that anyone knows of?  Would be nice to run numbers on things like this, maybe give us a better guesstimate...

If only there was some kind of roller coaster database... we could abbreviate it as RCDB! Ah, great idea!

Anyways, I ran a search based on ride height, not drop, for heights between 200-299 feet. Only looking for existing or upcoming attractions, not defunct or removed ones (sorry SoB). As of today, globally, per RCDB, there are only 8 parks that have at least 2 different coasters between the heights of 200-299 (Busch Gardens Tampa, Canada's Wonderland, Cedar Point, Energylandia, Ferrari World, Fuji-Q, Hersheypark (I'm assuming their new hyper is less than 300ft), and SFOT). I found it odd that SFMM didn't make the cut, as I thought X2 was in this category, but its height is under 200ft whereas its drop is over 200ft,

 

Anyways, looking at these 8 parks, no single park has 2x 200ft+ coasters of the same make and model. Canada's Wonderland is actually the closest at anything as both Behemoth and Yukon are from B&M, but that's where the similarities end, followed by Ferrari World as both of their 200ft+ coasters are Intamin (but one is a shuttle, so some may not count that in the 200ft+ category). CP gets the glory here with having the most coasters in the 200-299ft range. 

 

[IndyGuy4KI]

6 hours ago, WhereDidBeastieGo said:

Is there some sort of database with this info readily available that anyone knows of?  Would be nice to run numbers on things like this, maybe give us a better guesstimate...

Try https://rcdb.com/ I think that is the site you are looking for in your post.

Welcome to KICentral!

[BSBMX]

7 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

@fryoj you seem pretty knowledgeable about how blueprints work. Can you confirm, based off the leaked prints, whether 300ft will be peaked or not? You might have said it earlier but its a long thread.

I'm speaking out of turn here, but the footings blueprints give us two hard numbers (lift angle at 40deg, and distance between main lift backbone footings, around ~453ft). What we do not know is drop angle and what the crest curvature looks like, both of which are essential in figuring out the height. But, if we use Fury as a reference, we do get very close to 300ft quite easily using these hard numbers and estimates. I'm ballparking in the 285-300' range, topping out around 305'...I just don't see it going any higher than that given what we know. I hope I'm wrong though!

Drop height could be more, if ravines, tunnels, etc. are utilized. 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

10 hours ago, thatguyfromohio said:

-image from google-

This hill here gives an amazing feeling


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I would go nuts if KI's coaster had this element! This is my all time favorite element on any coaster! 

[fryoj]

8 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

@fryoj you seem pretty knowledgeable about how blueprints work. Can you confirm, based off the leaked prints, whether 300ft will be peaked or not? You might have said it earlier but its a long thread.

 

1 minute ago, BSBMX said:

I'm speaking out of turn here, but the footings blueprints give us two hard numbers (lift angle at 40deg, and distance between main lift backbone footings, around ~453ft). What we do not know is drop angle and what the crest curvature looks like, both of which are essential in figuring out the height. But, if we use Fury as a reference, we do get very close to 300ft quite easily using these hard numbers and estimates. I'm ballparking in the 285-300' range, topping out around 305'...I just don't see it going any higher than that given what we know. I hope I'm wrong though!

Drop height could be more, if ravines, tunnels, etc. are utilized. 

@BSBMX sums it up for the most part. We differ a little in that I'm not 100% that the drop side footer is a backbone footer. The design shown in the plans and what we see on Fury and Leviathan aren't the same. The overview shows a more rectangular footer, while those other two coasters have a large square footer that sits flat on the ground. The overview references a drawing that seems to be missing a view, but the view that does appear looks more like a multi-support footer to me. That leaves some debate in my mind about the drop side and the math involved. It could be that they just consider that footer as part of the next phase and its not really a part of this, so they will include in the next set of drawings. If it is accurate though and is a two support footer, then that could change the math quite a bit. What we can be sure of though is at the widest(and assumed to be tallest) set of supports, the angular height should be right around 299 ft. The problem is that plans show the supports there lean forward and most likely tie into the backbone as it's dropping. Theres also, as mentioned, not knowing the drop angle and geometry of the top of the hill. The steeper the drop, and the smaller the radius of the crest, the taller it can go. But theres limitations on what the trains can do. Personally, I have my doubts whether the top of the lift will be 300 ft to the ground at the peak, but we just don't have enough info to say that with any certainty. 

[teenageninja]

8 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

@fryoj you seem pretty knowledgeable about how blueprints work. Can you confirm, based off the leaked prints, whether 300ft will be peaked or not? You might have said it earlier but its a long thread.

It's impossible to tell at this time.  We have the distance between the footings, but we don't have a descent angle or the radius at the top of the drop.

We can use historical data to take a guess, but that's all it will be, a guess.

As for your assumption above about the first hill being an overbanked turn, there is quite a bit of distance between the drop and the turn around, so I would assume there is some sort of airtime hill or element between.

There is also a good amount of distance between the turnaround the "treble clef".  Basically we know nothing.

[fryoj]

9 minutes ago, teenageninja said:

 

As for your assumption above about the first hill being an overbanked turn, there is quite a bit of distance between the drop and the turn around, so I would assume there is some sort of airtime hill or element between.

There is also a good amount of distance between the turnaround the "treble clef".  Basically we know nothing.

Actually the leaked plans show high and low points plus support heights and locations. That turn is the first hill after the drop. The turnaround is the second. Theres no bunny hills between. 

[teenageninja]

There must be a separate set of "leaked plans" than what I've seen then.