Outdoor Man

A chain with a history of financial troubles marrying a chain that had financial troubles on the horizon... Solution: let's make the Titanic bigger; what could possibly go wrong?

It's amazing how omission of a word changes the whole meaning of a post..... Should have been: "Bigger, taller, faster coasters are not better. Better is better." D'oh!

@DispatchMaster, I still contend- someone wants a Dive Coaster- go to Cedar Point, Dorney Park, or Busch Gardens. All within reasonable distance to KI and would pull Cincinnati-market guests to those parks for visits. Dive Coasters are a unique "thrill" but I they generally last <2 minutes (which includes the lift) and in the US, the most they are themed tends to be a steel structure installed over concrete or a plot of grass. Iron Menace costs CF in the $25 range if not mistaken. Take half of that and install a one-of-a-kind dark ride experience in the "vacant-11-months-a-year" building. Bigger, taller, faster coasters are better. Better is better. Good creativity and story telling sometimes draw better crowds than innovation. See: WDW "It's a Small World". VERY old technology, not themed to a movie, and an iconic story telling ride. Currently a 45 minute wait. Haunted Mansion: 75 minute wait. I know, not exactly an apples to apples- innovation is good, but it can bankrupt a company trying to keep up with latest every year.

All ears could be pointed to IAAPA 2024 in November. Having been there (exhibiting and other) 2016-2019 & 2021-2023, I can say with about 90% accuracy, Cedar Fair has not been associated with any major coaster contract signings, or VERY few, since the pandemic (*edit: I don't count TT2, as it was not a "new" ground-up coaster). A contract signing in November 2023 would certainly line up with surveying/design work being performed now. BUT, I don't recall CF being associated with any related Press announcements last November. I may have missed it but those things tend to generate a buzz on the floor even if you weren't at the announcement. I also doubt that an 8-digit project would be in queue while the merger is still on the table. Some day there will be something there. I believe that when it arrives it will have an iconic design of sorts as it will be featured in every press-oriented image generated by the park with it's visual location to be included in every picture of the Eiffel Tower. Prior to the run up to Hypers and Gigas- Vortex was a huge marketing piece of the park because the coaster was seen, literally, on every marketing piece (and photo taken from guests at the fountains) generated. Arguably, perhaps, the coaster to appear in more pictures that any ever. I would prefer they choose a coaster concept that is not and cannot be replicated at a sister park- but an experience you can only find at Kings Island. You want taller/faster??? go to CP. Dive Coaster- go to CP or Dorney. Dive coasters tend to all be short, mostly <2min. BUT, if it must be that, do one with a layout similar to Griffon and themed like any of the European installations. Take an experience that you can get within a reasonable drive from KI and add a unique ride experience that drops you into a story that you cannot find elsewhere.

"Mike Baxter with Outdoor Man" with thoughts from an evening at the park. Parks get a black eye sometimes for overlooked, obvious shortfalls- sometimes for good reason, but there also needs to be a set of unwritten rules that should be understood by park guests. For instance: CLEAN UP AFTER YOURSELF: when eating in the Coney area, Festhaus, Juke Box, etc... don't leave your leftover ketchup, BBQ sauce, cheese, etc... laying and/or smeared on the tables. It's gross. DON'T SIT ON THE TABLES: people place their food there and don't want to thing about your posterior sitting where their arms rest while tilting a burger bit in their mouth. That's gross too. Speaking of gross: GUYS- if you enter the restroom and see a bank of unused urinals, but insist on peeing in the toilet, hit the hole. and, if you miss- CLEAN UP AFTER YOURSELF. FLUSH THE %^& TOILET when you're done. When using the urinal, the target in front of you is rather large, and there's really no reason you should miss and contribute to the puddle under it. KEEP YOUR PHONE SECURE WHILE ON A RIDE: the video footage that you get while riding that roller coaster will be so bumpy you won't be able to see it anyway and won't be worth the lawsuit filed against you (or your family's umbrella policy) when it inevitably hits someone after you drop it. Stop throwing pocket items onto the shade tarps. Sure, the first person or two to have done it may have been funny (not really though). But now, you're just #4,543 to have done this tired ritual. In general- CLEAN UP AFTER YOURSELF. But, more- PARENT'S edition: PARENT YOUR CHILDREN. I agree with the park, Kings Island is not your daycare and support the most of the curfew measure, though I'll contend that a lot of the problems are with the 16-18 year old crowd. KEEP YOUR KIDS OUT OF THE LANDSCAPING. I'm amazed at the amount of parents that think that their kids climbing all over the floral date landscaping is somehow okay. NOT ALWAYS THE KID: Adults- stay out of the landscaping DON"T VERBALLY ASSAULT YOUR KID IN FRONT OF EVERYONE (or ever): Yes, they can be annoying. But it's awkward to be in line behind the person dropping all types of f-bombs to their <10 year old while in line for the ride. And to the guy I exchanged word with in line tonight- I'm not the only bystander to notice your tirade. As the spouse of an elementary teacher, some kids get it honestly....

I AGREE! Spring is a hard financial time for parks to navigate, because you are right, the parks are filled with a lot of Season Pass holders and school groups who are there at a discounted price. It would be a hard sell to the "General-Admission-Paying" public to pay full ticket price for: a truncated experience by a park that closes, sometimes, 3 hours earlier than >Memorial Day. days packed with thousands of kids from school groups.... many of whom tend to be "brats" unpredictable weather: hot/cold rain/humid. At least in Summer you know it's going to hot as hades and any humidity storm will be there and gone within 30'ish minutes. It will be an interesting summer. Studies published by professionals affiliated with IAAPA are predicting a good year for seasonal parks. Even if the economy continues a downward trend people will shift into staycation mode and spend money here as opposed to... Orlando. And, yes- the C-Suite folks generally ALWAYS know where the golden parachutes are; and I'm pretty sure that the suite dwellers from the company -approaching financial hardships- trying to merge with the suite dwellers from the company with a -history of financial hardships- know keenly where the keys to unlock the parachute cabinet are.

I'll toss out an idea. I had a concept in my head a few months ago. An Intamin multi-launch coaster that "interacts" with the layout of The Beast, meanwhile named something like "Cryptid" (look it up). The Beast, as a roller coaster isn't The Beast itself, but imagined to be riders on a train going through the woods being stalked by a Beast that lurks about. In a wish list environment, where money is no object, have Cryptid launch out of the station on a long straightaway, ground level, through the woods into a high rise hill (like the hill coming out of the second launch on VelociCoaster) that peeks (out of no where) above the tree line. Go through a winding track in a path through the woods, clearing as few trees as possible and coming close to "The Beast" a few times and coming to a mid-course indoor themed element to a stop- where riders may be able to see The Beast going through the early parts of the track. Using available technology, time it out to when The Beast is preparing to enter a straight section, have "Cryptid" launch out of the enclosed area and interact directly with a Beast roller coaster train- doing a heartline roll directly over The Beast before finishing out the ride. It would be a unique only to KI, have an awesome theme... and give The Beast the ambush that is written about in the station.

Ummmm, guilty?

Again, you provide your typical spiteful response. I didn't say you thought customers were liabilities. If you re-read it was that you view cars in the parking lot as liabilities- which you implied cause wear and tear on said lot. Which, while is true... it is also indicative of guests on premise. You use words like: ignorant, strikingly odd, straw man, half-assed- I'm guessing you're, at most, age 21, not a college grad or student, only have opinions about business ownership but haven't had such experience. have never had to deal with a differing opinion and can only name-call to feel like you have the upper hand... not to mention probably don't pay your own expenses.... Am I close? Yes, I requested a "parade".... I just dropped $1,200+ to the park last week, the last thing I would expect a CF employee (or someone who hasn't bought a pass in years) to call me is entitled.

'Master, a majority of your posts tend to be exceedingly full of sprite to prove to yourself that you are RIGHT. Yes, I park there (I pay for it too....). I usually ride <10 rides a year probably (I just paid $140 for a Season Pass). I tend to not use the restrooms there because they are disgusting, and not all the park's fault. Seemingly grown men who cannot hit a large target like a urinal in front of them feel the need to try their luck at a toilet and proceed to leave urine all over the seat and floor. Again, that's not the Park's fault. But, I just dropped $1,200+ to the park last Saturday... and YES, guests should have some level of expectation that goes along with spending their money there. I can only assume you do work there or had at one time as a disgruntled hourly with a bad guest experience. Otherwise, this is a strange hill for a random person on a fan site (who admittedly hasn't purchased a pass in years) to set up camp on. Again, just say "thank you." While I'm at it, how many businesses have you run? I have owned several: consultancies, a financial services company, and a marketing/web agency, and misfired on a couple. While there are certain aspects of a business that one would be intimately familiar with, if I owned a predominantly outdoor venue I would view cars in the parking lot as paying customers not liabilities to the parking lot. Wouldn't concern myself with the number of times the toilet flushed- unless there was a leak. Flushing toilets mean there are guests present. I imagine if you ran an entertainment-focused business you would be genuinely pi**ed when guests came; that's a solid business model, by the way. And Boddha saying you work there. I'm willing to be you do... or at least did at one time. I know you're not a lawyer, or have had any relevant Law classes. No lawyer worth $5/hour would be posting such strong-spirited opinions on fansite pages. I'm not sure how you can come across as level-headed on other KIC threads, but have such thin skin and unwilling to acknowledge opposite opinions to yours exist on this one.

I don't want to split hairs but I think your terminology is a bit off. I didn't finish college with a Finance degree but was many classes in before I switched. And, forgive me because my recollection of certain term meanings as they pertain to day to day operating costs fade into the background- your comparison of "Variable Costs" doesn't see to fit here. To make sure I looked up several exact definitions: " Variable costs are any expenses that change based on how much a company produces and sells, such as labor, utility expenses, commissions, and raw materials. " So, my mere presence walking the paths or riding a ride doesn't affect any operational piece of the park. These ere on the side more of Fixed Costs (though, in their nature are variable I guess).... employees are there anyway. Actors in shows perform anyway. Lights are on, grass is mowed, landscaping is kept, rides operate, etc... These things occur whether or not I enter the park or not. I'll leave open the possibility that you're approaching this from another angle... but on the surface it sounds wrong. That you call anyone who spends their money on a company's product (or service) as entitled.... I sure hope you don't work for KI/CF. $500 isn't a large expense (for passes) for our family- but it is for some. Despite this, though, is does get categorized into our "discretionary spending." A KI Season Pass is a non-essential expense that is not necessary for basic needs. This discourse has gone way off the rails of the original comment by Boddha a while ago of "he wishes he knew"- or something like that. Though we haven't officially purchased our passes yet we probably will. Though if it seems like staff feels that we are entitled... I can spend that elsewhere too. My original comment lamented that in my previous experience with owning season passes there have been times where things were offered or implied that didn't pan out as expected. We've continued to purchase anyway. But, if you want to poke holes in someone's personal/actual experience- go ahead, you seem to like to get the last word in to prove you're right. I'll make mine easy- i won't reply further.

I have a solution for them.... PhotoShop. 5 minutes with the "clone" and "airbrush" tools and those cement footers go POOF! That said, the Camp Snoopy sign was likely designed and created by a third party (such as Kingdom Productions with the Adventure Port theming- though I don't know who has this project). Any third party wanting to "market" their work will keep going until it has a visual/aesthetically appealing presentation.

So, this is what happens when I unplug and take a long weekend- I end up replying well after the comment is made and moved on from. Humor me. 1) "not sure why it is relevant"... firstly, you took my lower number of $3M- I think it's closer to the $30M number. Either way, to CF's bottom line it may be irrelevant'ish- but to an individual park... different story. I am a long-tenured season pass holder and I'll say I don't cost the park a dime when I go other than expenses they already incur whether I go or not. They still pay the employees (which is a large percentage of operating expenses of any enterprise), they're still paying for electricity, heating/AC, maintenance, landscaping, security, etc... this makes no difference if I go or stay home. So, when I shell out close to $500 annually for my family to have a pass, along with hundreds of thousands of others, this gives the individual park leverage to create budgets: it is relevant and if you don't agree- then not only are you not an attorney- but not good in finance & budgeting either. 2) you're not a stakeholder of any sort, including a SP holder presently? Then you have no horse in this race. 3) You're clearly not happy in these forums... why do you continue to engage and complain about people who clearly "exhaust" you? To quote someone you may know: "it's kind of difficult to take the complaints seriously from people who willingly engage in what appears to be an abusive relationship." -DispatchMaster, April 5, 2024

I intentionally low-ball'd my estimate. AP sales, prior to the beginning of the season, is literally guaranteed money (less the 2.4% bank interchange fees). Even if a holder on the payment plan defaults- they're still getting money up front. Allow me to use my low ball number of $30,000,000 (just for KI) prior to the season when the BIG expenses occur. If they invest it at all somewhere earning at least 4% (which is decent presently), they earn an additional $3,200 daily (DAILY) in interest. I know this is very rough math and isn't a clear image of reality.

OK, so I used to post regularly... now about once-a-month. And though I am usually content to be just mildly amused by the back-and-forth banter it will bother me if I don't comment. Couple things: - I'm pretty sure "DispatchMaster" isn't an attorney- at least not for CF. If they were I'm pretty certain they wouldn't post comments on KIC providing a digital paper trail regarding his/her client. - DispatchMaster refers to enthusiasts as entitled, whiny, etc... These "enthusiasts" also tend to be a significant portion of the KI/CF Season Pass base- which I believe in other threads DM has also referred to as whiny and entitled. I don't consider myself an "enthusiast" but am a Season Pass Holder. My family and I have had Season Passes EVERY year since we moved to the northern Cincinnati area in 2005, or 19 seasons- though I'd say I had Passes a few other years despite the drive. In 19 seasons, not counting food and other entertainment purchases, we've paid CF between $8,000 and $10,000. And in that time, YES, there have been times where things were implied and/or assumed that didn't happen or changed mid-stream; this is commonly referred to as a "bait-and-switch". I used to know from a place I worked at, but am spit-balling here for the moment. at one time, Kings Island had approx 300,000 Season Pass holders. Someone can correct me on this but I think that is right. That's been a few years ago, maybe it's higher or lower now. Passes cost more now, but let's assume that in 2024 that 300,000 guests paid $100 for an annual pass, the majority of them prior to Opening Day. By my rough math, that means that the Season Pass Holders and the associated enthusiasts (you know, the entitled whiners and complainers) annually give KI/CF a $30,000,000 interest-free loan before the product has been delivered. Even if it is only 30,000 APs (which I'm fairly certain it's closer to the former)- that's still a $3M interest-free loan given. I've owned a handful of businesses in the past decade.... I've never received that kind of pre-payment, let alone an interest-free loan. I'm not sure why offering a tooth-and-nail defense of CF is a hill DispatchMaster seems to want to reside on. Most likely not an attorney, but sure comes across as a stakeholder of some sort... And if that is the case, I don't care to be looked at with annoyance and exasperation or viewed as whiny or entitled- "I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way." (Jack Nicholson).

Went to Grain and Grill last May for the first time (and last time). First observation: nothing had grain in it and nothing was grilled. Second observation- the chicken was W-A-Y undercooked... there's no medium rare in poultry, only well done. I my took concern to the "manager" - didn't want another, just to let them know. She was dismissive and didn't seem to know what was wrong with it. That visit was first and last there. Have had chicken-oriented food poisoning before. Great "diet" program (lost 12 lbs in two days)- but the 3-day hospital stay was a rather forgettable experience.

to be fair... the younger crowd isn't exactly innocent of asking for a water cup and not proceeding to fill with soft drinks, et al. $0.45 is enough of a deterrent to give a moment of pause so that they don't have a pocket of change to take on rides.

Missed opportunities.... mismatched theming. Action Zone: Bat, Banshee... Is there a theme developing??? then Inverigo, Delerium: maybe a motion sickness theme. Oh, wait- Congo Falls? Rivertown: rustic 19th century theme. Mystic Timbers, meanwhile, themed to an abandoned 1980's lumber company that apparently has a Y2K camera/surveillance system. To be fair... TR:TR was one of the best themed attractions to ever be on property... and it's didn't exactly match the Losantiville Train Station next door. Just to name a few.

Wow, Outdoor Man blog entries quoted from 14 years ago. SOB removal seemed very unrealistic- give the sheer size of the structure, and sizeable investment they had in it. But, once a roller coaster gets a strikes on it- that persona is difficult to shake off. The ride experience wasn't that great to be gin with. Flight Deck... I can't say for certain, but I'd be willing to bet it was saved in the 11th hour from it's demise. Before they refreshed/repainted/rethemed to The Bat it was looking pretty worn down and neglected. renaming to The Bat worked pretty well to bring some popularity back to it, though I think the former line queue through a aircraft carrier could have been changed to a "bat-theme" and added a decent "wow" factor to it. Now it's just a metal platform structure in the woods. the Crypt.... wow, what a sad ending for an iconic ride like TR:TR. And a lasting scar/imprint of what once was. It's been 18 seasons since anyone experienced a ride at Kings Island that I would have put up against an attraction based in Orlando. Total immersion in the experience from the time you stepped foot into the line queue outside, to the exit.

would be a pr nod, a feel-good story, and great theming element if ki were to reconstruct a replica of Moonlite Gardens at the cap of Coney Mall, perhaps where The Vortex line queue was. Maybe as an indoor/outdoor eating area. In addition, reconstruct the iconic Coney Island entrance gates at the west entrance of Coney Mall. Coney Mall will soon be the last remnant left of the once iconic park. KI has an opportunity to do things to give nods to its history. what, if anything, will they do? Or will it be as I suspect, business as usual. I'd like to be wrong.

Just an opinion. Somewhere in the regional park lore it is unwritten that a park must do annual multi-million $ installations to keep the fan base returning. Meanwhile, since 2020 KI will have created three new themed areas to bring them to a total of 9. Area 72.... eh... OK. Adventure Port, nice (if it will be kept up), and now Camp Snoopy. What's the long-term vision for this? Will any of these be built onto or will #10 be developed? Assuming that between Orion and the other two developments there has been $60M+ invested in KI over the past four years. OK, Orion is a "giga"- but it's still just a taller, updated version of Diamondback. Think of the infrastructure, themed area development, show innovation, etc. that could have been invested in to create memories worth repeating. Perhaps an entire, ground-up, remake of Planet Snoopy into a fully immersive "Camp Snoopy" area. Maybe a fully immersive experience to make use of the TRTR building.

hmmm. A company with a history of financial problems (SIX) and one with storm clouds on the horizon (FUN)..... what could go wrong here?

I'll go back a few years more. If they had listened to the guest pre-2009, Diamondback would have been a giga. In the Paramount days (and before), Kings Island enjoyed flagship status. World firsts and innovation came here before the others. Since then, not only has it played 2nd fiddle to Cedar Point- but Orion was the 6th (and shortest) Giga+ in the chain to be built... and wasn't even intended for KI. That said, taller and faster doesn't immediately translate to better. Better is better. Disney World's Seven Dwarfs Mine Train is 41 ft tall... it rarely has a wait less than 2 hours. Hagrids at Universal is 65 ft tall and I rarely see a wait less than 3 hours. VelociCoaster, half the size of a giga.... multi-hour wait every day. Difference: these roller coasters tell a story. The parks determine the story they want to tell and have a coaster built that tells it = guests will ride again and again. Some will say Banshee is themed... sort of- the theming largely ends once you leave the station. The Bat isn't themed at all. Imagine how effective the shed "show" with Mystic Timbers would have been if it were placed at the tunnel, mid-course. Then when, whatever was going to strike you, happened- a second launch propelled you back to the station. But fortunately for Giga lovers in Cincinnati- word is someone higher up wasn't astute on structure height restrictions in Santa Clara, otherwise the roller coaster nka Orion would have been built there with just 11 years to live... Paramount, to their credit, tried this with Tomb Raider. It was a game changer and got them national recognition. It was a unique story that another park wouldn't be able to replicate. 250-300ft tall roller coasters can be found at most parks.

To the original post: comprehensive RFID bands for season pass- al la Disney. Could be a profit center with benefits. Loyalty Program, track guest trends Store multi-factor enabled payment methods Of course, season pass info- which would have an image of the pass holder for security on purchases Give season pass guests the ability to leave their wallets home or in the car. Line Queue management - having spent time with people at Disney who work with MDE and Arm Bands- the amount of robust analytics gathered by these are a key reason that the Disney experience is repeated. Honestly, the amount of analytics would probably overwhelm them and, this isn't a knock, they probably wouldn't have the horses to disseminate the info. More investment in technology that encourages interaction with said technology... this gives = analytics. Data-based decisions may avoid things like $40M coaster installations that are largely identical to one your already have. I know, I know- Orion is a Giga..... it's basically an updated Diamondback layout. Take a percentage of that investment and create an immersive experience inside the Tomb Raider bldg. Create an experiences worth repeating... and one that people will wait hours for. Make an experience out of a coaster: put a small body of water under a hill on Banshee.... have fog and strobes at night. Stop creating new "named" areas in the park and theme the areas already there. Adventure Port is very nice area and very Herschend'esque- but I'm not sure what the theme is. I assume it is Latin America... Meanwhile Oktoberfest continues to shrink. Rivertown, assumed to be 19th century Cincinnati'ish... Mystic Timbers... basically an abandoned saw mill from the 1980s. Pick a lane. As a guest and Season Pass holder for the past 18 consecutive seasons it seems that large investment decisions are made based on what a committee thinks guests want and not what data/analytics would say. I could be wrong. But, from where I sit- instead of spending millions to go taller and faster- completely remake Camp Snoopy into the entire area... I'm sensing that CS and Planet Snoopy will be "two" areas... Kids are interactive... put more than just rides in there- imagine experiences that families will want to repeat and that older kids will want to revisit.

Kings Island: buy historical landmarks that will be lost forever in a few months... refurb Coney Mall with said landmarks.