Banshee trouble?

[BB1]

So I do know Banshee has been having a weird year this year. 1. Banshee's rattle got 3X worse this year, I ride Banshee almost every visit, heck it's my #3 coaster ranked on my steel rankings. I have easily a couple hundred cycles on this thing, and yet every seat this year I've gotten a nasty rattle. 2. A few weeks ago purple train was pulled from operations, which I thought maybe was a wheel issue for the rattling, and iirc I haven't seen purple train in operation since. With this new development, I'm seriously wondering if they're trying to fix some rattling or there is a piece of track they need to work on. (For the record though, I never felt any rattling on the first drop even in the flare out) 

[gforce1994]

8 hours ago, BB1 said:

So I do know Banshee has been having a weird year this year. 1. Banshee's rattle got 3X worse this year, I ride Banshee almost every visit, heck it's my #3 coaster ranked on my steel rankings. I have easily a couple hundred cycles on this thing, and yet every seat this year I've gotten a nasty rattle. 2. A few weeks ago purple train was pulled from operations, which I thought maybe was a wheel issue for the rattling, and iirc I haven't seen purple train in operation since. With this new development, I'm seriously wondering if they're trying to fix some rattling or there is a piece of track they need to work on. (For the record though, I never felt any rattling on the first drop even in the flare out) 

The ladders at the site are an indication of trackwork.

[FUN&ONLY!]

I heard in Reddit that there was a crack in the track down the first drop, so it would make sense if they are welding it.

[PKIVortex]

Purple train hasn't been on all season. Only teal and blue has been in the track.

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[gforce1994]

2 minutes ago, PKIVortex said:

Purple train hasn't been on all season. Only teal and blue has been in the track.

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That’s not because of the ride, it’s because of when COVID struck.

[PKIVortex]

That’s not because of the ride, it’s because of when COVID struck.

I know, I should of quoted a post above they were talking about the purple train being removed and hasn't ran since.


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[Benjamin22]

1 hour ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

I heard in Reddit that there was a crack in the track down the first drop, so it would make sense if they are welding it.

If that's true that's pretty bad for a 6 year old B&M..... I know silver bullet has also had some structural issues on the Cobra roll.

[gforce1994]

31 minutes ago, Benjamin22 said:

If that's true that's pretty bad for a 6 year old B&M..... I know silver bullet has also had some structural issues on the Cobra roll.

If it was a crack, and that’s a big if, they would likely replace the piece. There are so many factors at play with welding outside and at heights.

[IndyGuy4KI]

9 hours ago, gforce1994 said:

There are so many factors at play with welding outside and at heights.

A good welder will know how to make a good weld in most conditions and metal thickness that they are working on. Height is not going to stop a welder, heck you can even weld under water. 

So making an assumption a track piece has to be replaced over a weld it's not a good conclusion.

[gforce1994]

6 minutes ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

A good welder will know how to make a good weld in most conditions and metal thickness that they are working on. Height is not going to stop a welder, heck you can even weld under water. 

So making an assumption a track piece has to be replaced over a weld it's not a good conclusion.

Yes, a good welder will know what he’s doing. However there are risks at working at heights. 
B&M has replaced a piece in the past for their coasters. With KI being so close, and the manufacturer having the CAD files, why not?

[teenageninja]

20 minutes ago, gforce1994 said:

Yes, a good welder will know what he’s doing. However there are risks at working at heights. 
B&M has replaced a piece in the past for their coasters. With KI being so close, and the manufacturer having the CAD files, why not?

People weld at heights all the time.  Replacing a piece of track is a pretty major overtaking and I highly doubt they'd be rushing to do that for 3 more weeks in the season.  Not to mention Clermont Steel would have to have all of the raw material on hand, they'd have to have time in their production schedule, they'd have to have time to get it painted.

[gforce1994]

1 minute ago, teenageninja said:

People weld at heights all the time.  Replacing a piece of track is a pretty major overtaking and I highly doubt they'd be rushing to do that for 3 more weeks in the season.  Not to mention Clermont Steel would have to have all of the raw material on hand, they'd have to have time in their production schedule, they'd have to have time to get it painted.

I’m not saying it would be done by the end of the season, if it was a crack.

[DeltaFlyer]

1 hour ago, gforce1994 said:

Yes, a good welder will know what he’s doing. However there are risks at working at heights. 
B&M has replaced a piece in the past for their coasters. With KI being so close, and the manufacturer having the CAD files, why not?

So, with the manufacturer being so close- you think it would be better/easier/cheaper to replace an entire section of track:

• Fabricate said track section from steel that CSF would have to have on hand.
• Perform applicable testing to the new track piece.
• Prime and paint a one-off piece of track to match the existing with paint that is likely a custom color.
• Hire a steel erector to mobilize, remove the existing piece of track, and install the new piece. Settlement and slight movement would make this piece difficult to line back up into the existing, even if it was manufactured exactly the same.
• Re-test and re-certify the entire ride.

Or... re-weld a stress fracture in place and use X-Ray and Particle testing in the field to verify the integrity of the weld. I have a feeling we know which one is cheaper, faster, and easier. 

How is someone at height to bolt in a new track piece any different than welding?

[CoasterJack]

3 minutes ago, DeltaFlyer said:

So, with the manufacturer being so close- you think it would be better/easier/cheaper to replace an entire section of track:

• Fabricate said track section from steel that CSF would have to have on hand.
• Perform applicable testing to the new track piece.
• Prime and paint a one-off piece of track to match the existing with paint that is likely a custom color.
• Hire a steel erector to mobilize, remove the existing piece of track, and install the new piece. Settlement and slight movement would make this piece difficult to line back up into the existing, even if it was manufactured exactly the same.
• Re-test and re-certify the entire ride.

Or... re-weld a stress fracture in place and use X-Ray and Particle testing in the field to verify the integrity of the weld. I have a feeling we know which one is cheaper, faster, and easier. 

How is someone at height to bolt in a new track piece any different than welding?

It would be really hard to match the faded paint as well. The drop would look off, and worse than just a weld. I definitely agree it would be much easier to just weld the existing track already in place.

[gforce1994]

2 hours ago, DeltaFlyer said:

So, with the manufacturer being so close- you think it would be better/easier/cheaper to replace an entire section of track:

• Fabricate said track section from steel that CSF would have to have on hand.
• Perform applicable testing to the new track piece.
• Prime and paint a one-off piece of track to match the existing with paint that is likely a custom color.
• Hire a steel erector to mobilize, remove the existing piece of track, and install the new piece. Settlement and slight movement would make this piece difficult to line back up into the existing, even if it was manufactured exactly the same.
• Re-test and re-certify the entire ride.

Or... re-weld a stress fracture in place and use X-Ray and Particle testing in the field to verify the integrity of the weld. I have a feeling we know which one is cheaper, faster, and easier. 

How is someone at height to bolt in a new track piece any different than welding?

One could be cheaper, easier, and faster- but with a high speed ride that’s highly dynamic, do you want to introduce a new weld that been made outside of factory conditions. Furthermore, the welds doesn’t fix the source of why the crack was there originally. 

[jsus]

2 hours ago, CoasterJack said:

It would be really hard to match the faded paint as well. The drop would look off, and worse than just a weld. I definitely agree it would be much easier to just weld the existing track already in place.

They'd just do the same thing that auto body shops do any time they replace a panel or otherwise need to do significant paint work - blend the new paint with the surrounding paint so there's a more seamless transition between new and old.

The paint looking a little deeper on one track segment likely wouldn't get most people's attention, anyway.  Do you see people remarking over fresh wood on wood coasters, which sticks out like a sore thumb (e.g. light brown new wood, dark brown aged wood)?  I don't.

As for repair vs. replace, it comes down to whether or not any defect in the track (or a support column, for that matter) can be fixed in a way that Kings Island maintenance and B&M are confident in its structural integrity.  A repair would generally be significantly less expensive, ignoring transportation costs from CSF.  ~40 tons of steel (for track, dunno about support columns) ain't cheap, nor are CSF's services.

[WickedDragster]

ohh  the reputation of B&M in decline lol j/k I would also assume they will not replace a whole section of track over welding. There is no way that's a cheaper move.  ALso they would have to repaint the entire coaster......it needs done as is but still lol

[DeltaFlyer]

5 hours ago, gforce1994 said:

B&M has replaced a piece in the past for their coasters. With KI being so close, and the manufacturer having the CAD files, why not?

 

1 hour ago, gforce1994 said:

Furthermore, the welds doesn’t fix the source of why the crack was there originally. 

You are suggesting replacing a piece of track with another of the same design, using the same CAD files. How does that fix the source of why the crack was there in the first place (if there even is one)? 

If you are suggesting a manufacturing defect, then the replacement piece will undergo the same testing before leaving the factory as it did before. If it is a design flaw, as in the track piece needs additional reinforcing or tighter tie spacing, then that would no longer be working off of the original plans. You'd have to reengineer that segment and perform FEA all over again. Should we add an additional footing and support column while we are at it?

[gforce1994]

6 minutes ago, DeltaFlyer said:

 

You are suggesting replacing a piece of track with another of the same design, using the same CAD files. How does that fix the source of why the crack was there in the first place (if there even is one)? 

If you are suggesting a manufacturing defect, then the replacement piece will undergo the same testing before leaving the factory as it did before. If it is a design flaw, as in the track piece needs additional reinforcing or tighter tie spacing, then that would no longer be working off of the original plans. You'd have to reengineer that segment and perform FEA all over again. Should we add an additional footing and support column while we are at it?

They can easily pull up the specifications for that specific piece. Since the manufacturers know the dimensions of the piece, they can easily build a new one. The track section in question lies beneath a support.
 

 

[DeltaFlyer]

1 minute ago, gforce1994 said:

They can easily pull up the specifications for that specific piece. Since the manufacturers know the dimensions of the piece, they can easily build a new one. The track section in question lies beneath a support.
 

 

You did not answer the question- how does replacing the defective piece of track solve the issue that caused the crack to develop?

[jsus]

5 minutes ago, DeltaFlyer said:

You are suggesting replacing a piece of track with another of the same design, using the same CAD files. How does that fix the source of why the crack was there in the first place (if there even is one)? 

Depends entirely on the specifics of any crack or other defect that may or may not exist in the steel track.  All of these are possible solutions, presuming that the notion of a crack or other defect in the steel track is indeed the reason for the downtime.

That said, the park stated that they hope to have Banshee operational as soon as this weekend (see @IndyGuy4KI's post on the first page).  Has anyone seen a flatbed from Clermont Steel Fabricators bringing in this supposed replacement track segment this week?  I'd think they'd need to have it in by now, especially if replacing track requires re-certification by ODOA.

[grsupercity]

Im going to assume the new Vest restraint trains weigh more causing more stress on the track?

[IndyGuy4KI]

We are going down a rabbit hole here over the assumption that @gforce1994 made about it being track work. At this point the park is not stating the exact problem, just that they hope to have it open this weekend. Lets hope Banshee is up and running for us this weekend.

[gforce1994]

34 minutes ago, DeltaFlyer said:

You did not answer the question- how does replacing the defective piece of track solve the issue that caused the crack to develop?

I’m assuming it was a hairline stress fracture if there a crack produced during the manufacturing of the piece. If they did a second piece it would be unlikely be there in the second go.

 

24 minutes ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

We are going down a rabbit hole here over the assumption that @gforce1994 made about it being track work. At this point the park is not stating the exact problem, just that they hope to have it open this weekend. Lets hope Banshee is up and running for us this weekend.

I never assumed it was trackwork. Someone mentioned a Reddit post in an earlier comment.

[Gabe]

I'm curious if someone could post a pic of the ride with the area in question circled? 

[IndyGuy4KI]

 

On 10/6/2020 at 10:20 PM, gforce1994 said:

Nope, it looks to be more track work as there were ladders at the bottom of the first drop.

 

On 10/7/2020 at 8:40 AM, gforce1994 said:

The boards were in a place (bottom of the first drop, that would only mean trackwork.

 

19 hours ago, gforce1994 said:

The ladders at the site are an indication of trackwork.

 

Your posts state otherwise and it started 2 days ago. Since then you have not given other ideas any plausibility and it seems you have made up your mind. Most members want to come and talk about multiple scenarios and have a free discussion. Being open to other ideas and talking about them would make the thread more fun and entertaining. We might get more people chiming in for a bigger discussion, but some might not want to post because they are going to get shot down and told it is track work. We want the site to be welcoming and respectful of everyone's ideas and thoughts.

[gforce1994]

I should have said I’m not the one to introduce the notion of it being a crack. With the work being done where there are no motors, no sensors, and no electrical equipment, it’s hard not to deduce that.

[cfred]

56 minutes ago, gforce1994 said:

I should have said I’m not the one to introduce the notion of it being a crack. With the work being done where there are no motors, no sensors, and no electrical equipment, it’s hard not to deduce that.

May I suggest you reread Indyguy4ki's  post again...I think you are still missing the point!

[Kenban]

B&M has maintenance guidelines, they detail how often to inspect the track and what to do if something is found.  Often the first step is to contact B&M.

Having said that I have read several B&M service bulletins.  The typical response to a crack is to grind it out, weld a replacement piece of steel, NDT to verify the repair, and repaint.  The only times I remember seeing to replace the item is for parts on the trains if the material is too thin.

Replacing a piece of track is not typically done, even for a crack.

Just to add we have no idea what is going on, and we have gotten pretty far off into wild speculation.

[Maddog]

From what the park has already said this doesn't seem too serious, especially if they hope it to be running so soon!

On 10/6/2020 at 2:54 PM, IndyGuy4KI said:

I reached out to the park and this is what they have said, "We can confirm that Banshee did not operate last weekend. The maintenance team will have it up and running as soon as they can. They hope it to be operating this weekend."

I think we've gone off the rails (pun intended), discussing the possibility of a whole track piece getting fabricated to replace some unidentified defect--given the aforementioned timeline estimation of operation.

 

Also, this comment:

2 hours ago, gforce1994 said:

With the work being done where there are no motors, no sensors, and no electrical equipment...

Seems to conflict with this comment (from the same person):

On 10/6/2020 at 3:54 PM, gforce1994 said:

There were also wires strewn about under the first drop.

 

So were there wires laying around or not?  Perhaps there was a wire pull which needed quickly re-done?