The pros and cons of a park offering a fast pass

[ldhudsonjr]

11 minutes ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

My only issue with it is the number of FL people they let on each cycle. When they fill 1/2  or more of a train each time I think that is to much. 3 rows per cycle should be the limit. Granted I might feel different if I was standing in the FL queue. 

I agree 100%. They really do need to put a reasonable limit on the number of FL people they put on each train. Yeah it would be mildly annoying on the days when the shoe is on the other foot, but I mean you're still talking about a DRASTICALLY reduced wait time.

[JimParker85]

I believe they sell too many. The numbers in 2019 at CP and Wonderland were insane. I would move to make it more exclusive and sell far fewer. 1k-1500 for all season platinum, $200 for busy days at the major parks in the chain. I don't see that happening, however. 

Top Thrill Dragster is really the most obvious implementation of how much FLP has changed the guest experience. For the last 4 years, the park has reserved the entire front train in the station and the left side approach line for FLP. The ride host is supposed to move standby line guests into the front train queue when no FLP is entering the station, but in 2019 specifically I saw two instances where they had to hold the gates as the host didn't notice that they were about to load a half full front train while the standby line was back to the vending machines. It's not ideal. 

[Benjamin22]

13 minutes ago, JimParker85 said:

I believe they sell too many. The numbers in 2019 at CP and Wonderland were insane. I would move to make it more exclusive and sell far fewer. 1k-1500 for all season platinum, $200 for busy days at the major parks in the chain. I don't see that happening, however. 

I doubt they’d sell that many all season passes for $1000-1500. I’m sure CedarFair has a lot of data when it comes to pricing Fastlane and consumers are willing to pay for it. There’s really no incentive for them to sell less Fastlane or raise the prices as it seems park guests are okay with the current system in place. 

[JimParker85]

It's already $850 for all season platinum. 

[Benjamin22]

11 minutes ago, JimParker85 said:

It's already $850 for all season platinum. 

Yeah and nearly doubling that price makes it significantly harder for some people to justify getting it. All season platinum already likely makes up an extremely small % of total Fastlane users. Cedar Point last year clearly realized that season passholders wouldn’t even pay $850 for all season Fastlane which is why they lowered the price. I doubt many people would visit enough Cedar Fair parks to justify spending $1000-1500 on it. As per home park specific all season Fastlane ad mentioned $750 likely is the max people would be willing to spend for parks such as KI,CP,Knotts & CW. 

[ldhudsonjr]

1 hour ago, JimParker85 said:

It's already $850 for all season platinum. 

Yeah I'm with you. I'm glad we are (mostly) in agreement here that the system could use some tweaking, but as I mentioned in another comment above, I don't think making FLP even less accessible to most people than they already are is the answer. I'm not sure if people on this forum are just mostly single, or if you all have extremely good jobs or what the situation is lol.  I just know as a husband and father of two who already gets platinum passes with meal plans and drink plans for everyone, an additional $4 -6k (before we even start talking about travel expenses to other parks) is just not reasonable.  I'm considering adding all season FLP for my wife and I next year and that's already $1700 at that point my season pass package will be more than it would cost me to get my family memberships at some of these fancy private swim clubs around here.

[disco2000]

People will pay it regardless.  Maybe it costs you out of it if they increase the costs, but to someone it won't.  Just like there are people that cannot afford to go KI once a year, and many more that cannot afford a gold pass.  Classic scenario of the have and have nots.  Generally, those that cannot afford FL or don't want to spend that kind of cash do not like it and those that can afford it and purchase it like it.

Around 2016 Disney started to raise rates exponentially and more frequently than annually as an attempt to lower attendance for crowd control..and up until Covid, they were still increasing attendance every year.

The more expensive it gets, the more people assign an exclusivity to that experience.  Disney attracted new visitors with the higher price point because these new visitors now associated the experience that they could afford that others now could not as a status symbol of their wealth.  I could see that happen with FL here as well.

Granted CF is not Disney, but there are people that will pay for it even at CF.  CF could double FL prices and I think they could still sell the numbers they do now if they wanted to.  It becomes an even bigger status symbol at that point and many in society will pay for that exclusivity.  Basic human nature and supply and demand.  It's the same across all aspects of our life, from the range of vehicle prices to 1-star to 5-star hotels and restaurants and everything in between.  It's a status symbol.

Even if they changed FL to you only got one ride on each ride per wrist band, there would be people that would then use up that wrist band and rip it off and then buy another one.  Why - because they have the money to do so and will then brag about it to their social media channels...

Heck, I know people that wanted to add another meal plan to their pass and the system doesn't allow that, so the person bought a second platinum pass with another meal plan, so now they have two platinum passes and two meal plans and two drink plans.  It does provide another benefit as well...

At some point someone will come here and complain about how unfair FL is and how expensive, etc., and that they will never visit the park again, but as long as people buy them and as long as they continue to have increased attendance, they are here to stay.

Guess what, CF hears that argument all the time.  It rears its ugly head on this forum every couple of years as well.

Remember when they first introduced Fast Lane at KI as a test and people were posting here and on FaceBook that Cedar Fair will never get another dime of their money for being unfair and allowing people with money to have a better experience....most of those complaining ended up renewing.  Some of them didn't renew the following year and sat out a year or two, but then got a pass again.  And even a smaller few have held steady and haven't got a new pass.  I know people in each category....That "never getting another dime of mine" complaint happens every year about Fast Lane or some other issue.

So what was Cedar Fair's response to that test - they introduced season long Fast Lane the following year at KI and then later Fast Lane chain-wide and then later chain-wide season-long Fast Lane pass add-ons.

Same thing happened with the meal plans.  People complained about the lack of quality of food and the long lines and they would never buy another meal plan.  Most sit out a year and then renew.  The value is just too good.  We see that argument here and on social media every year too.

We will see posts of people on social media saying “because of this you are never getting another dime of my money”, but guess what, the reality is that as long as attendance increases every year and as long as the number of new passes sold are greater than the number of passes that do not renew, they will continue to sell them...they will always have incentives to entice new pass holders…

As a business, they account for these losses of people not renewing.  I personally thought all the complaining on social media about meal plans and Fast Lanes would have tipped the scales the other way and it didn’t…Maybe maxed out to capacity crowds everyday will, but probably not.  Disney keeps raising their prices and keeps breaking attendance records…

Look at the Bengals.  Same thing.  Their season pass holders have been complaining for years about the product put on the field and don’t renew, yet we still get the same promising 8-8 team or worse…Mike Brown is doing just fine in the bank account either way…

At the end of the day, complaints and all, Kings Island provides a tremendous value for the dollar.  A family can load their kids up with passes and meal and drink add-ons and drop them off to KI Daycare all summer for less than the cost of one week of day camp somewhere…

When we have to worry is IF the scales tip the other way and they have more people staying away from the park because they felt the guest experience was not worth their time and money...at that point is when we see gate give-a-ways to increase attendance.  And many of us remember some BAF free days under Paramount that were insanely crowded horrible guest experience days...

 

[MoreFogPlease]

4 minutes ago, ldhudsonjr said:

Yeah I'm with you. I'm glad we are (mostly) in agreement here that the system could use some tweaking, but as I mentioned in another comment above, I don't think making FLP even less accessible to most people than they already are is the answer. I'm not sure if people on this forum are just mostly single, or if you all have extremely good jobs or what the situation is lol.  I just know as a husband and father of two who already gets platinum passes with meal plans and drink plans for everyone, an additional $4 -6k (before we even start talking about travel expenses to other parks) is just not reasonable.  I'm considering adding all season FLP for my wife and I next year and that's already $1700 at that point my season pass package will be more than it would cost me to get my family memberships at some of these fancy private swim clubs around here.

It's a pretty big benefit. It shouldn't be the expectation that anyone can easily afford it. If it's cheap enough that everyone can buy it, then what's the point? They would sell so many that it would barely be an improvement over the regular line.

They clearly have a large demand for it on Saturdays, or else they wouldn't have been able to sell so many. I don't know what the best price point is, but they could certainly raise the price from where it is now and still have a lot of people wanting to buy it.

[ldhudsonjr]

1 minute ago, MoreFogPlease said:

It's a pretty big benefit. It shouldn't be the expectation that anyone can easily afford it. If it's cheap enough that everyone can buy it, then what's the point? They would sell so many that it would barely be an improvement over the regular line.

They clearly have a large demand for it on Saturdays, or else they wouldn't have been able to sell so many. I don't know what the best price point is, but they could certainly raise the price from where it is now and still have a lot of people wanting to buy it.

 

 

7 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

People will pay it regardless.  Maybe it costs you out of it, but to someone it won't.  Just like there are people that cannot afford to go KI once a year, and many more that cannot afford a gold pass.  Classic scenario of the have and have nots.  Generally, those that cannot afford FL or don't want to spend that kind of cash do not like it and those that can afford it and purchase it like it.

 

 

I'm not really sure what we're talking about anymore. My post that @MoreFogPlease quoted was in response to suggestions that the problems some of us in this thread have identified with FLP would be solved by raising prices on them. I highly doubt the park is considering raising them to anywhere near what has been suggested here. If they thought they'd make more money charging $1500 for all season FLP, they would be doing it right now. What we'd been discussing is what tweaks could be made to FLP to improve the overall guest experience, not debating the finer points of product pricing.

[jimlaheyscar]

I agree that they should price it higher and sell less.  Not suggesting that to make more money. Keep profit the same but then you have less people in FL. Less people filling up seats each train. Everyone not paying waits a bit less. Thus, the customer satisfaction of a majority of guests is improved. 

[ldhudsonjr]

3 minutes ago, jimlaheyscar said:

I agree that they should price it higher.  Not suggesting that to make more money. Keep profit the same but then you have less people in FL. Less people filling up seats each train. Everyone not paying waits a bit less. Thus, the customer satisfaction of a majority of guests is improved. 

I'd be curious to know how many of those FLP passes go unsold every day. I guess my assumption would be if they thought they could sell them higher and still make the same amount they would have done it already, but maybe it's not that simple of a decision.

But yeah, I guess you're right that if they could sell less of them and make the same amount it would help.

[Benjamin22]

21 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

  CF could double FL prices and I think they would still sell the numbers they do now.  It becomes an even bigger status symbol at that point and many in society will pay for that exclusivity.  Basic human nature and supply and demand.  It's the same across all aspects of our life, from the range of vehicle prices to 1-star to 5-star hotels and restaurants and everything in between.  It's a status symbol.
 

I very much doubt this. If Cedar Fair could double one of their biggest sources of income and still in pull in the same numbers they already would have. While yes when you increase the price of certain luxury products demand will increase there comes a point where demand decreases so much that they actually lose overall revenue rather then increase revenue. The logic that more people will want it because it’s exclusive doesn’t make any sense in this case. What person that currently doesn’t buy Fastlane would want to buy Fastlane because it’s now more expensive? Probably no one. Disney has a totally different target market then Cedar Fair parks, the people coming to Cedar Fair parks won’t tolerate a significant price increase like what Disney has done. Does Fastlane need to be tweaked, probably yeah. But as I’ve mentioned there’s really no incentive for tweaking Fastlane. 

[JimParker85]

I think the idea of price variance would be to increase the cost per FL and reduce the amount available so that the park ends up making slightly more money but delivers an experience that is perceived to be better for more guests (shorter wait times in standby lines). However, the parks likely reason that the current dynamic of selling a significant amount of them at the current price points is best for business. 

My wife and I have all season. Wonderland just extended our passes through Labour Day 2022. I love the benefit, but I've been to Wonderland and Cedar Point on days when daily fastlane has sold out. The fastlane lines for major attractions can be 45 minutes long. (Our final trip to Wonderland pre pandemic, we waited nearly an hour for row 1 Yukon Striker WITH fastlane. Standby line was out of the queue and up the path towards Wonder Mountain). With the way that many stations favor fastlane, it just crushes the standby line. I feel bad for a guest who might only ride 3-5 coasters the entire day, and I worry about the overall guest experience. I'd be willing to pay more for mine, but I realize it is not something everyone would or could do. 

[disco2000]

But the finer points of product pricing certainly comes into play...

What enters the equation as well with any publicly traded company are shareholders (or in CF's case unit holders) and attendance becomes a component of that. 

Many will argue that squeezing 10 more cents per cap along with a 3% increase in attendance is better optics than increased revenue on a declining attendance percentage.  If attendance is going down year to year, then people instinctively will say "hey they are declining in attendance every year so the place must suck now so let's not go there" even if the park is making more money on less attendance.  Contrast that to the privately owned Bengals that Mike Brown doesn't care whether a fan is in the stands or not because he still gets his share of the more lucrative TV revenue that is signed and sealed whether he spent big bucks on an O-line to protect Burrow last year or not...

Certainly they could do the math and say if we up the FL price by $X dollars but only sell Y number and still make the same amount at the current price point and selling more of them to make it up on volume, they will lean towards the option that increases attendance.

Because of the publicly traded aspect, the offering of FL is as much about increasing attendance as it is making money.  Selling more FL at a cheaper price point brings more people thru the gate than a higher price point and less FL being sold.

The FL offering in and of itself brings people with the money to come to the park and ability to pay for FL to improve their personal experience.  These same people may otherwise skip going to a park without the FL offering...

CF execs have said in the past that they are totally fine with CP's FL lines being 30-45 minutes long (and many here have experienced that).  It means more people have come thru the gate.  

At some point, people will skip buying FL for a 45 minute wait in FL and maybe skip going to the park altogether and return when the FL prices increase to the point that they can then have a 5 minute wait...that is how someone wouldn't purchase a FL now but would purchase a FL if it were more expensive and made their personal experience better.  I am sure there are many out there that would rather pay more for a personal better experience.

 

 

[ldhudsonjr]

40 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

Even if they changed FL to you only got one ride on each ride per wrist band, there would be people that would then use up that wrist band and rip it off and then buy another one.  Why - because they have the money to do so and will then brag about it to their social media channels...

You are likely overestimating the amount of people who would be willing to do this...by a lot.

 

42 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

People can complain all they want about how unfair FL is and how expensive, etc., and that they will never visit the park again, but as long as people buy them and as long as they continue to have increased attendance, they are here to stay.

This has been a pretty civil discussion and I haven't seen a lot of complaining, just people giving their opinions. I don't think a single person suggested getting rid of FLP, btw. Why are you so angry about this? lol

3 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

But the finer points of product pricing certainly comes into play...

Yes, for the people whose job it is to run Cedar Fair. When discussing whether or not a product has a flaw, the consumer isn't obligated to consider the responsibility the company who offers said product has to their shareholders.

 

I'm not sure why this subject irritates you so much, and I'm honestly not trying to be disrespectful to you. I can see you've thought about this before, and I get what you're saying, I'm just focusing on a different perspective.

[ldhudsonjr]

24 minutes ago, JimParker85 said:

The fastlane lines for major attractions can be 45 minutes long. (Our final trip to Wonderland pre pandemic, we waited nearly an hour for row 1 Yukon Striker WITH fastlane. Standby line was out of the queue and up the path towards Wonder Mountain). 

I can imagine this being very annoying with all season but at least you'd know you'd get another the next time, but I would be enraged if I had dropped the money on a daily one and that happened. Totally understand why you say they sell too many.

EDIT: Apologies for the double post. I wasn't paying close enough attention.

[disco2000]

I'm not complaining or irritated or angry LOL, just introducing some business aspect sides of this discussion why we may see a this versus that...my apologies as I just re-read your OP and see you said keep it to the guest perspective LOL.  Well at least now we can point people to this thread as the unofficial definitive reason why from a guest and park perspective FL is here to stay!

I agree we haven't seen anyone complaining on this thread about FL yet, but the thread has only been active for a day and the park hasn't opened yet to the GP, so I am cutting it off at the pass and being proactive rather than reactive LOL...

Outside of KI, the other parks see a lot of foreign money come to the states (or Wonderland) to experience the parks and I assure you those people have no problem dropping down large sums of money to provide them with a personal experience.  If park surveys were made public, I think we would all be surprised how many say they would rather pay more for a better overall experience...now how much that more is is a relative term.  @JimParker85 stated he would be willing to pay more for a better experience, but I suspect that at some price point he would bail out as well...

 

 

 

 

[Kenban]

Fast Lane and similar systems have totally changed how I visit amusement parks and how much money I spend at them.  I travel a lot, 50+ nights a year in hotels was normal for me until last year.  While I do travel just for amusement parks, I also travel for other reasons as well and it’s not that uncommon for me to try to add on a park to another trip.  The ability to basically guarantee I will be able to ride the attractions is huge.  If I am paying for a hotel, transportation, tickets, etc while the cost of a front of the line pass is still significant it’s cheaper then another day at the park.  I check for line skip add ons and their availability actually changes how I schedule my trips, and makes it more likely I will go out of my way to visit the park.

I never want to have a big trip where I only get a handful of rides in, if I am that worried about crowds at a park and there is no way for me to skip the line, I might just skip the park completely.  I had a friend who traveled to Cedar Point last fall a trip they have made annually for some time.  They were at the park from open to close and rode 4 coasters the entire day.  After having to fly to Ohio they felt the entire trip was a waste of time and money.

Also it gets me out of the lines and into the arcades, stores, and restaurants.  I spend more money at Kings Island and other parks due to front of the line passes then I would otherwise.

An argument could be made the source of the issue is the season pass and ticket pricing, that their are just too many guests at times.  Raise ticket prices when the park is expected to be crowed, and maybe even tiered annual passes, some with blackout dates.

[ldhudsonjr]

1 minute ago, Kenban said:

 I had a friend who traveled to Cedar Point last fall a trip they have made annually for some time.  They were at the park from open to close and rode 4 coasters the entire day.  After having to fly to Ohio they felt the entire trip was a waste of time and money.

I feel for your friend. I had two similar experiences at CP last year and I was pretty let down, and for me it's only a 3 hour drive, I can imagine how I would feel if I had actually flown out. I don't know if you went up there or not last year but ugh I still shudder thinking about it. Not a good year for CP.

3 minutes ago, Kenban said:

An argument could be made the source of the issue is the season pass and ticket pricing, that their are just too many guests at times.  Raise ticket prices when the park is expected to be crowed, and maybe even tiered annual passes, some with blackout dates.

This is a good point. Definitely an interesting idea.

 

11 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

If park surveys were made public, I think we would all be surprised how many say they would rather pay more for a better overall experience.

I totally agree. I brought this up earlier and I think you alluded to it in your first post but I remember how angry people were about FL at first. Now I think a lot of people are pretty attached to it. I don't think FLP is a bad thing, which is good I guess because I also agree with you that it's definitely never going anywhere. All I'm saying is I think with a few small changes they might be able to make it feel like less of a waste of time to go into a park without one on a busy day.

[disco2000]

@Kenban - I have heard of many that experienced that as well at CP as well.  Did your friend say if they will skip CP this year?  I experienced that as well in October 2019 with their gold pass offering idea and was a horrible guest experience.  Even with FL it was ridiculous.  I made the decision to not go to CP again and didn't last year and glad I skipped after hearing all the issues last year and not planning to this year...and yes I am sure someone will comment that is one less person in line now LOL.

I would be willing to pay more for FL at CP if it was not 45 minute waits for FL.  So I will either skip the park altogether or suck it up in general line LOL.  But how much more I don't know LOL.

But as long as people are still buying FL, they don't have any real incentive to improve the guest experience for those purchasing it.

[Kenban]

31 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

@Kenban - I have heard of many that experienced that as well at CP as well.  Did your friend say if they will skip CP this year?

They said it, but I do not believe them.  They are exactly the kind of guest Cedar Point wants as well, visits annually, does not live near a Cedar Fair park so no annual pass, and stays at Breakers.

[KI Guy]

The calculation has been made that the extra revenue from the Fast Lane is worth devaluing the season pass and standard daily ticket.

I just hope for their sake that the calculation includes long term potential effects and opportunity costs.

How many people are not getting season passes or daily tickets because of the reduced daily experience? If they leave, do they come back?

How much more would guests be willing to pay for season passes if the experience were better, (lines went faster without Fast Lane)? Would these guests stay longer and spend more money?

Although they likely know what they're doing in the long term, it's always a possibility with public corporations that they are pumping attendance and revenue in the short term for stock price reasons rather than doing what is best in the long term interest of the business. Making more money now is not always a good thing unless you're a short term CEO after a bonus or a frequent stock trader.

[bjcolglazier]

46 minutes ago, KI Guy said:

The calculation has been made that the extra revenue from the Fast Lane is worth devaluing the season pass and standard daily ticket.

Interesting wording you used "devaluing the season pass". One could also suggest that FL sales subsidize season passes and/or daily tickets. It's possible that for some locals the sale of FL is keeping their season pass price lower than it would be. Is it worth it? For some probably yes, for others probably no.

Quick edit but it seems like season pass renewals have been ~$100 for a decade now. How long can this continue without other revenue? That $99 price-point has got to be critical to the park. We're seeing wages rising considerably now. So I don't know what they do, but I think they are heavily leaning towards FL and other revenues to keep the season pass as stable as can be. Some will see that as continued value for passholders, others will see it as a devaluation I suppose.

[KI Guy]

A Fast Lane system does devalue a season pass or a daily ticket since it will take more time to do the same level of stuff at the park if a Fast Lane exists rather than not. Alternatively guests could do the same amount of stuff, but only if they go on less crowded days. This would devalue the pass/ticket as the passholder wouldn't have as much flexibility on when he or she would want to go to the park.

You are correct that the season pass/ticket prices may be higher if FL did not exist, but this also would hurt the daily experience as more people would be buying passes and tickets making waits and crowds larger. Of course more customers may exist because they might not be able to afford the park at a higher price point.

As long as they don't lose sight of guest experience in the name of short term revenue, they will probably be okay. They likely are being smart about this, but as I said before, there's always a temptation to act in the short term when it comes to publicly traded companies.

Reply to quick edit: I agree that they have decided to keep the low price point on the passes. That calculation is quantity (number of passes) vs. quality (how exclusive a pass is which heavily affects daily attendance). That may sound bad, but deciding to offer a season pass in the early 80s was a similar calculation.

[Tr0y]

I’m indifferent to fast passes. I’ve never purchased one, granted I’m fortunate enough with my work schedule I’m able to go to the park on their slower days. 

[Pagoda Gift Shop]

One concern I have is that Fast Lane might impact the adoption of additional technology in the parks.  Now that everyone carries a phone, seems like we shouldn't be too far from being able to do more virtual queuing using the KI app and something like kiosks at the ride entrances.  I worry that the park won't consider things like that because it might impact Fast Lane sales.

[jimlaheyscar]

I don't think any sort of virtual queue is coming any time soon to most places.  That creates another problem of where do these people go.  If thousands aren't standing in lines, where are they?   

[AnyPancakes]

1 hour ago, jimlaheyscar said:

I don't think any sort of virtual queue is coming any time soon to most places.  That creates another problem of where do these people go.  If thousands aren't standing in lines, where are they?   

Spending money on food, beer, games and merchandise. KI makes zero additional dollars on you standing in line. 

[coaster sally]

virtual ques would have guests ride less rides as their wait times are wildly inaccurate.

[jimlaheyscar]

2 hours ago, AnyPancakes said:

Spending money on food, beer, games and merchandise. KI makes zero additional dollars on you standing in line. 

Physically where do these extra people go? I get they might spend more money (except food, they are already at cap with hour waits), but then you run into a space issue. Can't just drop another 5 registers in most of their gift shops and have twice as many people shopping. Space isn't there. So, they are just mindless walking the midway doing nothing. Just not seeing how virtual queues really help except in one off/rare situations. Orion opening weekend or two, great idea. All rides in the park? No way.