Another “I wish I had known this before I bought my Cedar Fair pass” situation

[DispatchMaster]

2 hours ago, disco2000 said:

Certainly this was intentional as CF felt that those from a Schlittenbahn park are less likely to travel to CP for passholder preview than X number from KI...

Regarding the Schlitterbahn claim, if that made any sense at all, why wouldn't they allow, say, Knott's pass holders from being able to attend?

You seem very hung up on equating "benefits" to mean literally anything, when I take it at face value to mean what they say - that these passes provide access to the parks during their public operating hours and during those visits provide additional benefits. And I take it to mean that because that is precisely what they spell out in the description and purchase terms.

[disco2000]

I would expect the number of platinum passes sold at a Schlitt park is far less than the number of Gold+all park passport from Knott's.

I guess your definition/interpretation of "benefit" is different that the rest of us.  But being part of the legal team I can see why LOL.

I think most here consider a pass holder preview event as a benefit of having said pass.

And your argument of it isn't an operating day so it isn't a benefit doesn't hold much water compared to the add-ons.  If that were the case, then why are meal and drink plans and season long fast line valid during pass holder preview if they are clearly marked as only valid during publicly open operating days?

Under your argument they should receive entry only to the park for passholder preview.

But whether you want to call it a benefit or perk or bonus or whatever word YOU wanna call it legally, the fact remains that a Platinum pass from a Schlitt park gets someone into the CP pass holder preview and the KI gold pass plus all park passport does not, which is advertised and addressed under the FAQ as being equal to a Platinum pass and is clearly not the case to everyone except you.

Maybe if you had a pass and personally experienced this you wouldn't be defending the chain like only a c-suite employee would 

But I know we both agree that regardless of how disenfranchised a pass holder feels about this or the other stuff, the majority will ultimately still renew instead of speaking with their wallet like you did.

[DispatchMaster]

I guess the fundamental difference is that I don't feel entitled to anything beyond what's spelled out in the purchase agreement, regardless of what I may have received in the context of previous purchases. And when purchasing a season pass, which explicitly states that it provides access to the park(s) during their public operating calendar, and there is no mention that these passes provide access to special events outside of the public operating calendar. Therefore, I expect to receive only what is spelled out and do not feel entitled to more. If I receive more, then great, but I don't enter into the purchase feeling entitled to more. 

You, and others, obviously feel quite entitled, as evidenced by the adorably-literal interpretation of what "benefits" means. I guess it's just a different life philosophy, but not going through life feeling and acting entitled has served me well so far.

But, again, it's not the disappointment I take issue with. It's calling this stuff a "bait and switch" that I find so completely entitled to the point of utter delusion.

 

[disco2000]

What would YOU call it then if it isn't a benefit?  Is it a gift, a bonus, a perk, an extra?

To most of us, anything offered to passholders is considered a benefit.  Whether you want to call it a bonus, extra, perk, gift, etc. it is still a "benefit" offered to you as being a passholder.

Regardless, they marketed the gold+all park passport as being equal to a platinum pass and say so in the FAQ.

Now with the CP passholder preview, a platinum pass out of the Schlitterbahn parks gets you into the CP passholder preview, while a gold+all park passport does not.  Does that sound equal to you?

You are smart enough to realize that those two passes are not "equal" as it relates to this event and that once again CF has managed to create issues because they cannot figure out how to properly word and advertise/market what they offer...

And we get it Mr. Attorney that conditions are subject to change and caveat emptor and it doesn't meet the legal definition of "bait and switch" and blah blah blah, but the optics and perception leave a bit to be desired.

Certainly the c-suite people with the large salaries they command could have figured this out before they rolled out changing the methods of passes offered.  But maybe not, WTF would you change your passholder offerings knowing that in maybe a year or two with the merger with SIX that the entire pass process would have to be revamped, so why create confusion for a year or two? 

[BoddaH1994]

Although this debate is as adorable as it is predictable, we learned some valuable lessons about the new season pass program. This is discussed thoroughly on the Tower Topics that drops tomorrow, April 5, 2024.

https://linktr.ee/towertopics

 

[DispatchMaster]

23 hours ago, disco2000 said:

But being part of the legal team...

23 hours ago, disco2000 said:

...like only a c-suite employee would...

4 hours ago, disco2000 said:

And we get it Mr. Attorney...

Since you insist on continuing to be an unoriginal troll, I have no interest in continuing to engage. Carry on with your baseless "bait and switch" histrionics.

[disco2000]

I do find it ironic that you said the reason you quit getting a season pass was because in your mind they devalued the ERT that you enjoyed....

And yet you said "when purchasing a season pass, which explicitly states that it provides access to the park(s) during their public operating calendar, and there is no mention that these passes provide access to special events outside of the public operating calendar. Therefore, I expect to receive only what is spelled out and do not feel entitled to more." 

Then why did you feel entitled to ERT as that is not during the public operating calendar...

Talk about being an unoriginal troll and changing your arguments to meet your narrative...as adorable as it is predictable...

[Outdoor Man]

OK, so I used to post regularly... now about once-a-month. And though I am usually content to be just mildly amused by the back-and-forth banter it will bother me if I don't comment. 

Couple things:

- I'm pretty sure "DispatchMaster" isn't an attorney- at least not for CF. If they were I'm pretty certain they wouldn't post comments on KIC providing a digital paper trail regarding his/her client. 

- DispatchMaster refers to enthusiasts as entitled, whiny, etc... These "enthusiasts" also tend to be a significant portion of the KI/CF Season Pass base- which I believe in other threads DM has also referred to as whiny and entitled. I don't consider myself an "enthusiast" but am a Season Pass Holder. My family and I have had Season Passes EVERY year since we moved to the northern Cincinnati area in 2005, or 19 seasons- though I'd say I had Passes a few other years despite the drive. In 19 seasons, not counting food and other entertainment purchases, we've paid CF between $8,000 and $10,000.  And in that time, YES, there have been times where things were implied and/or assumed that didn't happen or changed mid-stream; this is commonly referred to as a "bait-and-switch".  I used to know from a place I worked at, but am spit-balling here for the moment. at one time, Kings Island had approx 300,000 Season Pass holders. Someone can correct me on this but I think that is right. That's been a few years ago, maybe it's higher or lower now. Passes cost more now, but let's assume that in 2024 that 300,000 guests paid $100 for an annual pass, the majority of them prior to Opening Day. By my rough math, that means that the Season Pass Holders and the associated enthusiasts (you know, the entitled whiners and complainers) annually give KI/CF a $30,000,000 interest-free loan before the product has been delivered.  Even if it is only 30,000 APs (which I'm fairly certain it's closer to the former)- that's still a $3M interest-free loan given. I've owned a handful of businesses in the past decade.... I've never received that kind of pre-payment, let alone an interest-free loan.

I'm not sure why offering a tooth-and-nail defense of CF is a hill DispatchMaster seems to want to reside on.  Most likely not an attorney, but sure comes across as a stakeholder of some sort...  And if that is the case, I don't care to be looked at with annoyance and exasperation or viewed as whiny or entitled- "I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way." (Jack Nicholson).

[disco2000]

^Very well said.  To take it one step further chain-wide.

Remember that in the 2022 annual report released 2023 Q1, they noted that "In 2022, we sold a record 3.2 million season passes and generated more than $450 million in revenues from our suite of season-pass products, including all-season dining and all-season beverage....Operating costs and expenses for 2022 totaled $1.29 billion"

So lets assume that each of the 3.2 million passes were all $100, that is $320,000,000 + $450,000,000 in pass add-ons = $770,000,000.  So that leaves $520,000,000 that needs to be made up in resort revenue, single day entry, food and drink purchases outside of the season pass add-ons, and merch to reach their operating costs.

Now we know that there were other more expensive passes then due to Platinum and Prestige Pass prices, so the total revenue from pass sales alone is somewhere between $320,000,000 and $640,000,000 if everyone bought a platinum pass at $200.  

Now granted not all of that is front-end loaded in your example, but season pass holders and associated add-ons accounts for well over half of their revenue.

[Outdoor Man]

50 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

^Very well said.  To take it one step further chain-wide.

Remember that in the 2022 annual report released 2023 Q1, they noted that "In 2022, we sold a record 3.2 million season passes and generated more than $450 million in revenues from our suite of season-pass products, including all-season dining and all-season beverage....Operating costs and expenses for 2022 totaled $1.29 billion"

So lets assume that each of the 3.2 million passes were all $100, that is $320,000,000 + $450,000,000 in pass add-ons = $770,000,000.  So that leaves $520,000,000 that needs to be made up in resort revenue, single day entry, food and drink purchases outside of the season pass add-ons, and merch to reach their operating costs.

Now we know that there were other more expensive passes then due to Platinum and Prestige Pass prices, so the total revenue from pass sales alone is somewhere between $320,000,000 and $640,000,000 if everyone bought a platinum pass at $200.  

Now granted not all of that is front-end loaded in your example, but season pass holders and associated add-ons accounts for well over half of their revenue.

 

I intentionally low-ball'd my estimate.  AP sales, prior to the beginning of the season, is literally guaranteed money (less the 2.4% bank interchange fees). Even if a holder on the payment plan defaults- they're still getting money up front. 

Allow me to use my low ball number of $30,000,000 (just for KI) prior to the season when the BIG expenses occur. If they invest it at all somewhere earning at least 4% (which is decent presently), they earn an additional $3,200 daily (DAILY) in interest.  I know this is very rough math and isn't a clear image of reality. 

[DonHelbig]

On 4/2/2024 at 1:19 PM, Tr0y said:

I’m sure I’m not the only one who loves a good cruise story. 

"I had nothing to do with it. I was on a cruise with my family when that went down." -- Tales of the Sea

[Tr0y]

8 hours ago, DonHelbig said:

"I had nothing to do with it. I was on a cruise with my family when that went down." -- Tales of the Sea

 

[BeeastFarmer]

5 hours ago, Tr0y said:

 

https://youtu.be/mxQ-Ltfs9ds?feature=shared

[DispatchMaster]

19 hours ago, Outdoor Man said:

...that's still a $3M interest-free loan given. I've owned a handful of businesses in the past decade.... I've never received that kind of pre-payment, let alone an interest-free loan.

I'm not sure why this is relevant? That loan amounts to less than 0.2% of CF's annual revenue. It's barely a rounding error. A tiny fraction. And any earned interest is obviously a tiny fraction of that tiny fraction. Free money is always good, but it's relatively trivial. And it's not like that's free money, since pass holders tend to visit quite frequently per dollar spent, which costs the park money in terms of operating cost. So again, I'm not sure why this is at all relevant.

No, I am not a stakeholder of any sort. I haven't even purchased a season pass in a few years. I just find pass holders, who are not the revenue-generating bread and butter they envisions themselves as, who constantly complain about the value they receive while continuing to hand over their money, exhausting. And beyond that, there is such a thing as constructive criticism, but calling every reduction in value or whatever a "bait and switch" is patently ridiculous.

Furthermore, even if these were legitimate "bait and switch" actions the parks were doing, it's kind of difficult to take the complaints seriously from people who willingly engage in what appears to be an abusive relationship.

[BoddaH1994]

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

I'm not sure why this is relevant? That loan amounts to less than 0.2% of CF's annual revenue. It's barely a rounding error. A tiny fraction. And any earned interest is obviously a tiny fraction of that tiny fraction. Free money is always good, but it's relatively trivial. And it's not like that's free money, since pass holders tend to visit quite frequently per dollar spent, which costs the park money in terms of operating cost. So again, I'm not sure why this is at all relevant.

No, I am not a stakeholder of any sort. I haven't even purchased a season pass in a few years. I just find pass holders, who are not the revenue-generating bread and butter they envisions themselves as, who constantly complain about the value they receive while continuing to hand over their money, exhausting. And beyond that, there is such a thing as constructive criticism, but calling every reduction in value or whatever a "bait and switch" is patently ridiculous.

Furthermore, even if these were legitimate "bait and switch" actions the parks were doing, it's kind of difficult to take the complaints seriously from people who willingly engage in what appears to be an abusive relationship.

 None is asking YOU to willingly engage with complaints. We expect the person who fed you the line, “as adorable as it is predictable” to engage with complains. But we all know that they won’t bother to do that.

By the way, as promised, here is the latest Tower Topics discussing the lessons learned from this latest antic: 

https://linktr.ee/towertopics

[DispatchMaster]

I know you're being a snarky troll, but to be clear, no one fed me the line. Enthusiasts ARE predictable, in the worst ways.

[BeeastFarmer]

8 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

I know you're being a snarky troll, but to be clear, no one fed me the line. Enthusiasts ARE predictable, in the worst ways.

That's simply adorable.  Kind of reminds me of the song "Come Sail Away With Me" by Styx!

[Tr0y]

1 hour ago, BoddaH1994 said:

By the way, as promised, here is the latest Tower Topics discussing the lessons learned from this latest antic: 

https://linktr.ee/towertopics

Great episode that highlights a lot of questions with the current direction of CF.

It is true that a lot of it stems from communication and a lot of folks like to blame a certain individual here. However, folks should also realize that person is also relying off getting information from those of higher authority within the chain. Bureaucracy can be a Bee sometimes. I agree 2025 might be the year to hold off on going all in on a season pass. CF has historically been horrible at implementing new things. I anticipate post-merger of this to be any less different.

[IndyGuy4KI]

2 hours ago, DispatchMaster said:

I know you're being a snarky troll, but to be clear, no one fed me the line. Enthusiasts ARE predictable, in the worst ways.

Having a good debate is healthy. Seeing another's perspective is how we grow and learn. There are extremes both ways. This is no different than sports fans that are passionate about their team. For some KI fans/enthusiasts the park can sell them a $500 pass, walk in with only 2 flat rides open in the park, and given left over McDonald's fries for their meal plan and they will be happy about it. Then there are others that have these unreasonable expectations of the value of their pass. They could have ERT for themselves for 3 hours, get a 3 course meal and a massage before they leave and find something to be upset about. 

I do not think we are at these extremes in this thread when calling out the "this changed and that changed" after the fact.  Stating that it does not look good on the company as a whole, or the value of the pass has lost some value because what was was sold on date 1 then changed on date 2  like 30 days later is not unreasonable. Family's thinking about buying a pass may see these threads when doing research to decided if a pass at KI is for them. The parks decisions on these subjects have consequences on the bottom line. Just because someone feels they were mislead and and the "subject to change" has been used quite a bit in the last few years does not make them trolls. 

[disco2000]

5 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

Great episode that highlights a lot of questions with the current direction of CF.

It is true that a lot of it stems from communication and a lot of folks like to blame a certain individual here. However, folks should also realize that person is also relying off getting information from those of higher authority within the chain. Bureaucracy can be a Bee sometimes. I agree 2025 might be the year to hold off on going all in on a season pass. CF has historically been horrible at implementing new things. I anticipate post-merger of this to be any less different.

Sadly, come August the chain could say "due to the merger, we haven't figured out the pass process yet, so just pay us what you did last year and in April 2025 we will tell you what pass that amount equates to" and people would still buy it LOL.

I mean look at all the people on FB that post stuff like "I bought a silver pass, when am I allowed to visit the park." Or "does my gold pass get me into winterfest".  Or people on the podcast post asking if their CF pass gets them into KK or Hershey lol

[BoddaH1994]

16 minutes ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

Having a good debate is healthy. Seeing another's perspective is how we grow and learn. There are extremes both ways. This is no different than sports fans that are passionate about their team. 

For some KI fans/enthusiasts the park can sell them a $500 pass, walk in with only 2 flat rides open in the park, and given left over McDonald's fries for their meal plan and they will be happy about it. 

Then there are others that have these unreasonable expectations of the value of their pass. They could have ERT for themselves for 3 hours, get a 3 course meal and a massage before they leave and find something to be upset about. 

I do not think we are at these extremes in this thread when calling out the "this changed and that changed" after the fact.  Stating that it does not look good on the company as a whole, or the value of the pass has lost some value because what was was sold on date 1 then changed on date 2  like 30 days later is not unreasonable. 

Family's thinking about buying a pass may see these threads when doing research to decided if a pass at KI is for them. The parks decisions on these subjects have consequences on the bottom line. Just because someone feels they were mislead and and the "subject to change" has been used quite a bit in the last few years does not make them trolls. 

Someone on one of our social posts for the pod mentioned off-hand that they visited another park first, so they bought their pass there. Then they said they went to other parks in the chain and had problems with the add-ons. Someone replied that it was their own fault for not buying their home park pass.

You’re going to have a few sycophants and people who are seemingly being fed lines that would make that argument, but that’s not going to fly with the vast, vast majority of guests.

Park apologists often cite the statistic that a fraction of park guests are enthusiasts. Pretending that this statistic isn’t terribly misleading, assume that 2% of guests are “enthusiasts.” How will the “your own fault” argument fly with the other 98% of park visitors? 

 

[Tr0y]

What we are seeing as far as CF goes is nothing necessarily new. For example the first year of the season long dining plan: 

[disco2000]

7 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

What we are seeing as far as CF goes is nothing necessarily new. For example the first year of the season long dining plan: 

 

“Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.”

[purdude86]

On 3/30/2024 at 5:43 AM, BeeastFarmer said:

I understand your viewpoint. My interpretation might be splitting hairs, but it says YOUR benefits CAN be used at other parks.  So if you are a KI PP holder, whatever is offered at KI can be used at other parks.  But different parks can offer home park benefits to their PP holders. 

But, based on the KI implementation of this tier,  it would take a lot of improvement and trust for me to ever buy this pass.

That is my assumption of that statement as well. I view it more as the checklist graphic they show of what is included in each tier or not (no blackout dates, Halloween Haunt, Winterfest, free parking, etc) are the benefits they mean carrying over to all parks. Not park specific special events.

 

 

[BoddaH1994]

On 4/5/2024 at 12:58 PM, Tr0y said:

What we are seeing as far as CF goes is nothing necessarily new. For example the first year of the season long dining plan: 

I don’t know if you were “around” for this, but please jog my memory if you remember.

In 2014, wasn’t the All Season Meal Plan originally advertised for being through Labor Day, then they back pedaled and made it actually all season? There might have been a few days between the policy changes (which is implied by the post you shared) but I’m pretty sure they changed it that year. 

[disco2000]

1 hour ago, BoddaH1994 said:

I don’t know if you were “around” for this, but please jog my memory if you remember.

In 2014, wasn’t the All Season Meal Plan originally advertised for being through Labor Day, then they back pedaled and made it actually all season? There might have been a few days between the policy changes (which is implied by the post you shared) but I’m pretty sure they changed it that year. 

Wait until 2025 when they follow the SIX model and make the meal plans only valid thru Labor Day.  How else will they squeeze extra nickels out of the captive audience...

[BB1]

I am far beyond the ACE fanboy who wears a jean jacket with every patch from their favorite coasters who have their top 32 steel or wood off the top of their head; or can be caught dead wearing a coaster shirt to a theme park. I elected to un renew my GOCC, I elected to not do coaster events as I actually got bored of the politics in it and I felt like it was getting repetitive for my tastes to go every year. If that's for you that's great and I wish all the best for you, but it's definitely not me anymore. I worked at the park, I frequent the park as a guest , but in no way shape or form am I in the cavalcade of fanboy enthusiasts any more after going into the corporate world as frankly I just simply do not have the time nor effort to put in effort to do so. I spend close to $400.00 some odd dollars for a product with addons that I believed had the same value as the product I bought literally right after I left KI because I loved the advent of having free access to other parks. I have a pass for USO I use quite regularly, which I know gets me certain perks and a clearly defined benefits package. It's a different cadre of benefits to what CF can offer sure but in years past having a CF Platinum Pass gave you these benefits we have been talking about here. If they told me "Access to other park events may be pendant on your home park gold pass" at the beginning of this, I think I would be far more mute on my concerns. I had no intention on going to the CP event, but I understand where people are coming from however I like to know what my money actually gets me as every benefit adds some intrinsic value. 

Calling customers or better yet enthusiasts who basically already shill for the park enough ad homenems for a switch up of the norms for a pretty large coaster is honestly sad.  If you have such an issue with the enthusiast group just read the thread like I have and maybe, possibly, sowing dissent but not going out attacking people on it. If you have time to come to KIC and throw dissent at people, effectively calling them whiny enthusiasts to make some sick point which I still don't understand why you even needed to say that, at people for being upset about something you don't care about and go into depth on it, why not use that time to be more productive than to post on a forum? 

Yes, I understand park staffing, yes I know quite well park politics, also I know how important this coaster is to CP moving forward. While yes, it may upset people that they won't be able to get in, it's also a logistics issue that the park was not able to rectify. I would even go as far as to argue to create a Gold Pass All Park Passport Day to celebrate all of the new park passport passholders as I can really see that being a hit with all of the passholders in general. I know it sucks, I know it's rough when you already planned for this so far out, but the powers that be decided to do this. At this point, if the chain wants to go this route then looking at where I renew is something I should be taking in consideration. (A topic Ryan brought up in the Tower Topics podcast and I 100% agree)

[IBEW_Sparky]

On 4/5/2024 at 1:05 PM, disco2000 said:

 

“Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.”

And that is exactly why the meal plan was the ONE thing I didnt get, and never have.  Yes, they can (and given the chance, will) screw every other add-on up, but that and the all-season FL are the only two Id be really pi$$ed about.  The FL I find crucial enough to actually enjoying the park that I will "discuss" things with a gold tag each and every visit if I have to, as much as I have to, in order to get things right.  The meal plan I do not, and all it would do is make me angry enough to simply walk.

 

Further edited to address BB1s above post.... I dumped my CC membership about 8 years ago for many of the same reasons.... immature garbage, and all I really wanted the memberships to the various clubs I belonged to from 09-16 for, was the ERT.  I had also made the decision mid-season last year that this year would be my last, and that was before I had been made aware of the CF/SIX merger, or the myriad of garbage that CF has pulled with this latest iteration of the "We already have your money" pass.  Now, as you mentioned in your last sentence, Id be adamant about this one being it even if I hadnt already made that decision.

[BoddaH1994]

14 minutes ago, IBEW_Sparky said:

And that is exactly why the meal plan was the ONE thing I didnt get, and never have.  Yes, they can (and given the chance, will) screw every other add-on up, but that and the all-season FL are the only two Id be really pi$$ed about.  The FL I find crucial enough to actually enjoying the park that I will "discuss" things with a gold tag each and every visit if I have to, as much as I have to, in order to get things right.  The meal plan I do not, and all it would do is make me angry enough to simply walk.

 

Further edited to address BB1s above post.... I dumped my CC membership about 8 years ago for many of the same reasons.... immature garbage, and all I really wanted the memberships to the various clubs I belonged to from 09-16 for, was the ERT.  I had also made the decision mid-season last year that this year would be my last, and that was before I had been made aware of the CF/SIX merger, or the myriad of garbage that CF has pulled with this latest iteration of the "We already have your money" pass.  Now, as you mentioned in your last sentence, Id be adamant about this one being it even if I hadnt already made that decision.

But remember- they did change the rules on the All Season Fast Line add-on last year. Carowinds (I believe) made you choose between Tricks and Treats or Scarowinds Fast Lane. This was unprecedented in past years and was not in the original terms.

To Cedar Point’s credit, they are allowing All Season Fast Line purchasers to ride TT2 on an unlimited basis while the daily Fast Lane is a one-time thing… although I’m sure that if they changed the rules so that if the All Season Fastlane people had to deal with a condition that was not disclosed at purchase the same culprits would be defending them. 

[disco2000]

^wonderland did that during Haunt as well.