disco2000

The weather doesn't appear to have impacted attendance like one would think.

Just because it isn't illegal doesn't mean it isn't a bait and switch either. Perception is reality and if a customer believes they bought something with the expectation of receiving a certain benefit that is listed as a benefit of said purchase and then it is removed, in their eyes that is a bait and switch. OK, so you spoke with your wallet and said that once they devalued the platinum pass you had by allowing more passholders with lower tiered passes access to ERT you quit renewing. You said "We place a lot of value on Early Entry" and that de-watering/devaluing of that benefit was your reasoning for not renewing. So you would have simply accepted mid-season if they did away with Early Entry all together? You wouldn't come to sites like this and wouldn't go to guest services to express your dissatisfaction of a benefit promised when you purchased and simply would have chalked it up to "Season Pass benefits subject to change without notice." and remained totally silent and simply just not renew the following year? Well be glad you don't have a Prestige Pass with your extreme value of Early Entry. One of the said benefits of the Platinum Pass is a Preferred entrance for the first 2 hours of park opening. This is a tremendous benefit to those that get at the park for ERT or during the morning rush. EXCEPT - the park doesn't enforce it and lets everyone come thru that entrance. Many times Prestige holders coming as a group will split up at the entrance as a game to see who gets thru first. Sadly those in the Preferred Line are usually the last to get in LOL. Many people clog that preferred entrance up because they also think it is a guest services line. Prestige Passholders have complained many times to the on-site supervisor and expressed it in writing that they are not providing a promised benefit. Supers have told Prestige passholders they don't care and are unwilling to enforce that line prior to people getting in that line and will probably eliminate that benefit next year. Since you are big on a pass simply provides you access to the park and nothing else, The Platinum pass is to provide them preferred access to the park and they can't even provide that. You speaking with your wallet but not providing any input to the park as to why isn't really speaking. One would hope that being an active paying customer like many people are here and making complaints to the park in writing about issues would carry more weight as the park hopes to not lose them as a customer. But sadly, as you, I, and others here have pointed out, as long as people continue to renew regardless, they really don't have an incentive to improve. And then they are many that don't get to the park early and never take advantage of ERT and think it is silly someone wouldn't renew simply because they let more passholders in for ERT.... To each their own. What you put value on someone else doesn't and vice versa.

Maybe you are the irrational enthusiast that gets butthurt over one thing and then quits going to the park because of it Even with all the issues, fun and value is still had at the park by most of us. Nothing is perfect. Nothing is pure black or white. If we wait around for perfection, we are sitting in mommy's basement because it ain't happening. Such is life. Or, as you see us, we are not as intelligent as you because we haven't spoke with our wallets and continue to go to the park because it doesn't meet every one of our expectations At the end of the day, we each decide how to spend our entertainment dollar and are free time. You have decided to not spend it at the park and spend your time trolling those that don't accept your viewpoint LOL. Look, you make some great claims and points that many of us agree with (plus many we think you are wrong LOL), but you appear to not be willing to listen to other peoples ideas and opinions and maybe change your opinion based on what is presented to you. Many of us have said and agree with you that "there's no business case for catering to finicky complaints from customers who will purchase what you're selling regardless." It appears that is the business model going forward until metrics tell them to change. As long as people show up regardless, there is not a lot of incentive to improve. One area were we disagree with you is "no one is "promised" anything, and no one "deserves" anything beyond what's spelled out when agreeing to a transaction." and your refusal to accept the changing conditions of the Prestige pass. This isn't the only time that the park has used "terms subject to change" clause in the season pass, but this one was so blatant, obvious, and many "promises" that Prestige passholders "deserved" as it was spelled out as the benefits to the the Prestige pass that were then silently removed and many have screenshots showing what they agreed to at the time of the transaction. I guess because of the "terms subject to change" clause in the passholder agreement we should expect that you will never purchase a pass again because they may change the terms of something that you feel you deserve and was promised and agreed to at the time of the transaction.... Most of us though acknowledge that even with that clause, there should be an expectation that we should get what we paid for and agreed to at the time of the season pass transaction, and have to use our past history, experience, and reputation of the company to determine how much of the agreement they will hold up on. But if their model continues to be bait and switch, then we will start to see more people speak with their wallet. The question is how much bait and switch will it take for it to make an appreciable dent into the metrics for them to take note and make changes?

Keep in mind that he admitted in another thread that he has spoken with his wallet and hasn't been a passholder for who knows how long, so he has no skin in this fight and apparently refuses to think that the very reasons that caused him to discontinue getting a pass hasn't got worse....things have got much worse and the Prestige Pass bait and switch gives a glimpse into what they may do as times get worse. Since he isn't an active passholder/park visitor going thru these issues personally, his opinion doesn't carry the same weight as those that are.

Let's hope we never find out! But we see a watered down Haunt every year and people keep coming. People said we cheapened out getting Zamperla rides and a single instead of double seater Sol Spin, yet people keep visiting the park. Maybe it isn't 10 years, but the point is they don't need a record breaker or major improvement every year or other year and people will continue to renew the passes and add-ons because they represent a great value. I think we may see CF stretch the years and lower the budgets on attractions and see what impact it has, especially if the down year continues. Sure they lose passholders every year that say "they haven't done anything new so we are skipping", but if for every 1 passholder than doesn't renew, they gain 7 new passholders, they are coming out ahead.

That is exactly my point said in a different way. There are many passholders that haven't ridden any of the new rides built in the last 10-15 years and will continue buying passes and going to the park as long as it represents a good value to them. They go for the atmosphere, the shows, the meal plan, taking family that do ride the rides, etc. Now new attractions do contribute to the atmosphere and as you said maintain the attendance base. But at the same time they could stretch the years out a bit and not put in the latest and greatest and most expensive attraction and still maintain the attendance base. I mean look what a fresh coat of paint and rename can do. Hanks rarely had a line. "Sales" are exponentially higher this year and many times the line is out the door all because of a paint job and rename lol. Now obviously some of that increased foot traffic is attributable to Adventure Port being right there, along with picking up the Skyline customers with the removal of one of them in favor of the rarely busy Grain & Grill.

I mentioned blog because people keep bringing up Chad hasn't done stories and stories are best suited for blogs, along with pointing out that KI posting frequency there and other social media platforms is roughly the same as other CF parks (I did mention that too LOL) so maybe it is a CF thing and not a personnel thing...it was simply one of many areas people are knocking that department on that I was pointing out KI is comparable in posting frequency... Again, the point was whether CP went all out and invited every enthusiast and their family to the announcement (which they didn't lol so many think it was a dud as there wasn't all the hype about it - just simply a random statement that the next morning plans will be revealed long before park opening without guests being invited) or they did absolutely nothing, people are going to visit the park regardless. The only ones not visiting due to how the announcement was made will only be the completely irrational enthusiasts that got butthurt they were not invited to an announcement so they boycott the park LOL.

Exactly, It usually takes a lot of turnover before a previous culture is wiped out.

You are saying exactly what I have been saying in other threads LOL. People come to the parks whether the parks are marketing or not. You missed the point entirely if blog frequency was all you got out of that wall of text regarding job performance LOL. But that doesn't surprise me either LOL. It is one tool in the marketing tool box. But as you said, looking at the stuff where people are going...the fact that the frequency of posts to Twitter, FB, Instagram are roughly the same for each park is probably more an indication of the corp policy rather then the personnel in those roles. I am sure many in those roles would like to be more frequent and maybe be more active in interacting with guests but can't because of corp policy. And apparently to many, the frequency with which KI posts to those media is not sufficient enough.... There you go with metrics again LOL. Marketing doesn't always have defined metrics that can be assigned to it, but let's not go down that rabbit hole again. Regardless, the fact of the matter is whether CP did a huge marketing blitz about TT2 or not, people will go to CP next year to see what they did. CP could have done zero posts on social media and zero marketing about TT2 and simply word of mouth and all the "influencers" posting about it would drive attendance. Why spend on marketing when dozens, if not hundreds, of sites talk up your park for free and doesn't cost you a dime....

That book would be a best seller! Everyone has an opinion or heard a rumor why and people are interested to hear the real story and see which rumor was the closest lol. Although it would be better if it were a live stream with Q&A to ask the curiosity thoughts we discussed tonight. Or maybe that would be another chapter in the book on how that job and role has changed since he first started.

You as well! I know we both agree that Don left some huge shoes to fill and looking at that job description, that will be tough to fill at that pay as well. I feel for the person getting that job!

Thanks! And I am glad it made you laugh. And you know the answer to that LOL....it is still showing on the website LOL

I am genuinely curious as well, so let's go there! I think the whole PR/digital media landscape within CF is changing. It is just when I see similarities across the chain in that space, it does make me wonder if it is more corporate driven than park personnel driven. Sure Tony Clark may be a little more active, but I think that is more to do with their setup compared to ours. In fact, I have always questioned if having a separate PR person and digital media person was causing internal "turf wars" or conflicts and finger pointing and should they be one in the same person as it was prior? Sadly I have seen that happen when a role is split in two. It takes a couple people removed from the original setup before it smooths out. I mean as of today, Don still shows on the website as being employed and the write-up says: "Don Helbig serves as Kings Island's area manager, digital marketing. An experienced storyteller, Don manages the content for the park's website, mobile app, blog, and social media." So when Don and Chad were both there - who really was responsible for answering questions on social media and writing the blog? Based on that write-up I think most would think that would have fallen under Don and not Chad? Look at the KI blogs. I just went back to beginning of 2022 and Don did the overwhelming majority of them. Kyle and Chad did 7 of them, John Keeter did 5 of them, and then a few one-offs by some others, but Don did the majority. Aren't the blogs where storytelling is done? Who knows who does them now. Credit is simply given to Kings Island and not by a person's name. And then you look at the job posting for Don's old job and look at several of the responsibilities, if I were interviewing for the position, I would ask how is this not a conflict with the director of communications role. Some of the manager, digital marketing roles include: Coordinates crisis communication efforts.... including the development of consumer responses/statements, posting on social media outlets, and answering guest questions/comments on social platforms where appropriate. Assists PR team with media and guest inquiries. Assists as directed by the Director of Communications for programs such as, but not limited to: media and public relations support and commercial/advertising production projects. So I read this and wonder who's job is it really to be interacting to questions posted on social media and interacting with the guests. It sure reads like it is this person rather than the PR person. It just seems like there isn't a clearly defined line separating the two roles and issues will inevitably happen. Now would have been the time to clean the job duties up and make clear delineation on what each role was, but it doesn't appear they did. But we also don't know the official job duties of the position when Don had it - maybe when he left they changed the description to what it is now, so.... Maybe the Director of Communications role isn't to deal with us guests LOL It would be interesting to see the job responsibilities for the Director of Communications and compare and see how many conflicts there are with the two positions. Maybe it would be better if they were one combined and one person? Especially if the line between the two positions are as intertwined as they are. Reading that job description for Don's old job, it looks like the manager, digital marketing does all the work now and the director of communications is simply to be the face of the park to the media? Taking selfies with guests is just a bonus

It is easy to be an armchair quarterback LOL.... If you can do it better, then prove it. Look, I am not friends with Don or Chad and haven't got a selfie with either one LOL, so I don't really care who the PR person is here or anywhere else I visit. I don't let that define what parks I visit or let it interfere with my enjoyment of a park. I visit a park for other reasons. Apparently you do. Don is a friend of yours. I get that and you are defending him. Good for you. But the constant bashing of who is in the role now is wearing thin and probably to your detriment... I try to look at things objectively. Here is my observation. We have no idea what performance metrics or restraints are put on Chad, or were put on Don. Don wasn't exactly ripping out blogs frequently when it was his role either - once, maybe twice per month. But look how much and frequently he blogs now on his other endeavors. Maybe CF handcuffed him in his role. Don is a storyteller at heart, and I think he would have made it a priority if he were allowed to at KI. Look around the chain in terms of PR and digital media communication. Rarely does any CF park do more frequent blogs than once per month. It wasn't even more frequent when Don was responsible for it. Let's take a look at the most recent blogs from the top CF parks: KIs last blog was 9/20. KDs last blog was 9/27. CPs last blog was 10/8, but the last one prior was 9/19 with a TT2 update. Knotts last blog was 9/18. Carowinds last blog was 9/26. Wonderlands last blog was 9/20. We are about right in the middle of posting about the Haunt event. Further, all Twitter and FB posting frequency seems to be about the same for the other CF parks. Blogs across the chain are rarely at a frequency more than one, maybe two per month. Let's look more at the flagship Cedar Point. Their Haunt event started 9/14 and they didn't blog about it until 10/8. Real timely - almost a month after it started. Meanwhile KI Haunt started 9/22 and KI blogged about it two days prior on 9/20. That seems timely and relevant. All the other CF parks had blogs around the time their Haunt event started. Are you knocking CP comms on the Pointbuzz forum? What about Knotts comms? Wonderland or Carowinds comms? Look at one of the most anticipated industry announcements in recent years and was what to become of TTD - and the communication and PR about that was lacking and most would say a dud... In regards to Chad's response to that question, people are always excited about their new job and have ideas they want to explore and do, but sometimes other facets of the job conflict with that. I never put much stock in these Q&A of people in new positions. They don't know the role yet and can have much higher expectations and ideas than their employer will allow. I have seen that too many times. Brad has made it clear as a site we are moving forward from this.

Can't wait to see what you do with the job when hired

Would probably be options of Skyline and Skyline since Skyline pays to be at the park LOL

Absolutely! And there comes a point when having all your eggs in the passholder basket is detrimental. At some point the sheer number of passholders will have a negative effect on the bottom line and operations. Historically CF has said daily admissions and company outings make up almost 50% of their attendance. I think the number has been less post-covid, but it is still a good chunk. If those disappear, where does a large chunk of their "new" revenue come from? Is it squeezing more dollars out of the existing passholders with all these additional add-ons and one time purchases that keep popping up? Is it going to the extreme and the only entry is with season passes so that they truly have all the money up front and can better allocate the spending?

Unfortunately you know they are right - regardless of the product offered and conditions changing, people keep coming and keep renewing. As long as "new" passes sold every year exceed the number of existing passholders that don't renew, the number of passes sold show an increase and that is good enough for them with their model. Being a regional/local park in close proximity to so many that has a very strong season passholder base, people will renew even if nothing is added because the value is too great, especially now with the meal and drink plans. Where else can you be fed 2 meals a day for roughly 170 days (all summer and weekends in spring, fall and winter) for $130? People spend more than that in a mini quick trip to the grocery every week. Assume something like a lazer tag or putt-putt costs around $10 dollars and you spend an hour there, or a zoo or museum that is roughly $20 and you spend two hours there, the value to the consumer is $10/entertainment hour. And one will probably buy food or drink as well. For a daily admission to KI the cost/hour for entertainment is $3.5/hour, based on a daily admission that is $42 for 12 hours of entertainment (say a 10am to 10pm open to close), and the cost/hour of entertainment value is even less for a pass holder – far less. As it relates to Halloween, depending on the day, Dent Schoolhouse will be around $30 and Land of Illusion is around $60 for a daily or $100 for a Haunt season pass. On a cost/hr basis, KI beats that and offers more. Now it terms of scares and experiences during Halloween, the others will be better, but that apparently isn't the audience KI is marketing either.... Simply put, the cost/hour of entertainment value is a fraction of almost any other entertainment venue. The chain knows this. That is their model. Of course if enough time went by with no new additions and the park started to look run-down and not being kept up, then yeah they will start to see a decline in pass renewals. Unfortunately I think it would take about 10 years of absolutely nothing being added before an appreciable attendance drop would occur. Unfortunately, warts and all, KI is still an incredible value and hard to beat on cost/hr of entertainment value. As an example, people spend 4 times the amount of a gold pass per month for the privilege to belong to country club. Heck some swim clubs monthly dues are the price of a gold pass. So why spend on marketing and improvements other than some bare minimum? Until people speak with their wallets and take their discretionary spending elsewhere, the park has no incentive to do more than is necessary. They will still pull their 3.2million guests plus/minus 100,000 or so.

Contrary to popular belief, but Don hasn't been the "PR person" AKA comms director since late 2017 when they hired Chad Showalter and Don moved over to the position of Area Manager, Digital Marketing. We even had a thread about it when it happened:

The one thing the park is good at is being inconsistent with implementation/enforcement of policies!

Maybe that is operational issues or guest issues causing that but they are allowed to unload/load while moving and you simply haven't experienced it? Or maybe an older design with different manufacturer recommendations.

Wild Mouse at CP move in the station while boarding. At least they have every time I rode. What about Boo Blasters and White Water Canyon and a few other rides at other CF parks...not coasters lol but they do allow it.

Appears it will be getting a new name as Western & Southern backs out of sponsoring. Here is an interesting quote (and cross-threading about marketing dollars and that it isnt always about a tangible number one can tie to ROI that some here are adamant has to be the case LOL): “It’s not really about a return on investment for those title sponsors or expanding your brand reach. What naming rights deals are really about is you’re paying a premium for the perks of entertaining your clients, rewarding your consumers and there’s nothing better than sealing a deal with some courtside seats.” https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/i-team/the-tournament-stays-but-not-the-name-western-southern-steps-down-as-title-sponsor-of-cincinnati-masters

Welcome back! It's been a minute.

And this is exactly why they have the mentality of not having to spend any more on the event - people come regardless...