What ride did KI make the biggest mistake in getting ride of

[TombRaiderFTW]

1 hour ago, SonofBaconator said:

So do you think Sally took advantage of the recent film?

Sure, as much as smart business decisions can be thought of as "taking advantage of" something. See also: cartoon/comic book Wonder Woman getting several new Six Flags rides around the same time as the DCEU films, cartoon/comic book Spider-Man getting a few new Universal rides just before the Tobey Maguire era, etc.

[BiscyJS]

I really do hope they bring back Phantom Theater in some way but at the same time I don’t really trust Cedar Fair to pull off a dark ride. They don’t have the cleanest dark ride record under their belt. You have their rethemings to Boo Blasters (not really all that great), Wonder Mountain’s Guardian (which is okay), Voyage to the Iron Reef (which no one really cared about), and Knott’s Bear-y Tales (which seems pretty good). It does help that their most recent go at it went over alright, but they still have little experience with it. 

[SonofBaconator]

On 4/9/2023 at 6:48 PM, Captain Nemo said:

Not technically a ride, but I'd like to mention what was removed in order for Diamondback to be built. IMO Diamondback removed more then it gave with that being the entire vibe of Rivertown. DBs construction is responsible for the removal of the TRTR plaza, old Beast plaza, the lake, Rivertown Mining buildings, and pretty much obliterated the aesthetics of Rivertown. I enjoy Diamondback, but I would gladly take back old Rivertown.

Something I’d like to get people’s opinion on:

Diamondback’s grass never seems to get too long as it’s regularly cut. Would it look “junky” if they let the grass grow and let nature reclaim part of the park? Normally I’d think overgrown grass would look bad but considering Rivertown is in the backwoods area of the park, would it look more natural?

[BeeastFarmer]

9 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

Something I’d like to get people’s opinion on:

Diamondback’s grass never seems to get too long as it’s regularly cut. Would it look “junky” if they let the grass grow and let nature reclaim part of the park? Normally I’d think overgrown grass would look bad but considering Rivertown is in the backwoods area of the park, would it look more natural?

I think it would look unkempt. I understand they want splashdown views but I wish they would selectively plant trees and bushes.  

Also... Fix the hardscape. We have blacktop, concrete, and papers.  Pick one and make the area consistent.

[beastfan11]

On 4/11/2023 at 1:44 AM, BiscyJS said:

I really do hope they bring back Phantom Theater in some way but at the same time I don’t really trust Cedar Fair to pull off a dark ride. They don’t have the cleanest dark ride record under their belt. You have their rethemings to Boo Blasters (not really all that great), Wonder Mountain’s Guardian (which is okay), Voyage to the Iron Reef (which no one really cared about), and Knott’s Bear-y Tales (which seems pretty good). It does help that their most recent go at it went over alright, but they still have little experience with it. 

Definitely feel like with the recent thematic upgrades with Adventure Port, they have the chops to pull off PT/dark rides. Now, whether or not they would is a different story. But I have the utmost faith that they can. Ten years ago? Not so much. But I’ve been impressed with Mystic, Orion, and now AE + all of Adventure Port. Here’s to hoping!

[PKIDelirium]

To answer the thread title's question, I'm going to say the original Antique Cars. Paramount was bad at putting things where they didn't fit, like building IJST using less than half of that land instead of Action Zone where it would actually fit the theme of the area. Action Zone itself was meant to be a backlot, but instead they bulldozed a large area, an attraction the park itself was designed around, and just thunked it down there while leaving the rest of the property a bunch of flat grass.

Regarding Diamondback, I'm sure it would be done differently now in a more area-fitting way, but the early Cedar Fair years focused more on catching up on things Paramount had lagged on, especially the spree of building B&M hypers. Maybe if Paramount hadn't done IJST how they did, Diamondback's station area could have taken the place of the closed Rivertown Antique Cars area and crossed the pathway using the lift hill instead of the drop, without removing the lake. The return run could have been a tunnel under the midway to get back to that side of the path for the finale element and brakes.

Obviously there's no way to bring back Swan Lake as it was, but there's a lot of open grass on both sides of the pathway there, behind Showplace and also across from Diamondback that's sat vacant for a very long time now. A new lake as an entry to Rivertown could use both of those areas, with the pathway bridging over it. Diamondback's repaint is a welcome step in making it blend in more, but things like landscaping around the pool, upgrading and theming the queue, replanting the excessive number of removed trees behind the former Crypt building to better obscure the back half of the ride, there's plenty of things that can be done just with theme and landscape work to fit the area better.

(There is still a box of broken flip phones that forms the "theming" for the queue. That got old ten years ago, guys.)

[OverlandTaxis30]

3 hours ago, PKIDelirium said:

To answer the thread title's question, I'm going to say the original Antique Cars. Paramount was bad at putting things where they didn't fit, like building IJST using less than half of that land instead of Action Zone where it would actually fit the theme of the area. Action Zone itself was meant to be a backlot, but instead they bulldozed a large area, an attraction the park itself was designed around, and just thunked it down there while leaving the rest of the property a bunch of flat grass.

 

You and I both agree.

[rlentless]

I definitely agree with the Swan Lake removal . . although I love Diamondback.  So I thought the return of Swan Lake in The Vortex spot would be nice.  Theming with a flat or two, restaurant, shops like they have done with Adventure Port.  Not sure of the theming but something to match Rivertown.

Then concentrate the next new coaster to be in front with the replacement of Invertigo, Congo Falls, etc if they are close to retirement.

Trust me I'd love to have a new coaster in The Vortex spot.  But I think some year soon that Invertigo will not pass inspection and be SBNO.  I don't think they can build two coasters in both The Vortex and Invertigo spots quickly.  Then we'll be looking at another empty area for a few years again.

[3dgyrat]

On 4/17/2016 at 3:32 AM, MaestroJr said:

Phantom Theater by far was the worst mistake to remove. Sure Phantom was costly, and required heavy care and maintenance. But I think the main reason why it was removed was to keep with the current rides that Paramount wanted. I rode Phantom Theater in 2002, and many things on it needed desperate TLC, (like the furnace guys arm falling off that I saw one time). Instead of repairing, they went with the cheap fix of just replacing it with a ride with far less things that needed constant care. Also all the other Paramount parks were installing similar Scooby-Doo Haunted Castle rides, so I think that Kings Island just wanted to keep up and continue with the status quo. If Paramount never owned Kings Island, who knows Phantom might still be around today. I loved Scooby-Doo 's Haunted Castle as well but Phantom is my favorite and defiantly should have never left as it was far superior and much more creative. Hopefully though in a short while we will see something similar to Phantom be brought back to the severely lacking dark ride department. But I guess a dark ride is better then none at all!

MaestroJr

I never got to ride Phantom Theater but I heard good things about it in its prime. The scooby doo ride that replaced it wasnt too bad when I was younger, but when it got close to being replaced by boo blasters it had lost a lot of its luster. Now its just terrible, its a shell of what it once was just with random neon paint splatted around on everything. Everytime I went through it last summer I saw pieces literally sitting against the wall not even where it was supposed to be. I remember being able to see behind the library room because the fireplace piece wasnt even attached, it was behind the setup next to the actual wall. I like being able to sit for 10-15 minutes and cool off on a hot summer day, but the ride needs upgraded desperately. Would love to see phantom theater put back in there, but i dont see it happening. 

[kingsislandfan1972]

Vortex but then again, I suppose it had to go eventually. 

[KIEagle33]

6 hours ago, kingsislandfan1972 said:

Vortex but then again, I suppose it had to go eventually. 

We all know she had some time left on her...

[DJSkyFoxx]

Ride wise-Vortex

Event wise-Fear Fest. * I saw someone mentioned that it was actually scary and I concur. I mean. I was a teenager back then and I wasn't easily scared even in those days, but it definitely was not the "family friendly" Haunt we have now. I would compare this to the store Hot Topic. I was a huge fan of it was a high schooler. It was truly a dark, gothic store with an edge. A place parents questioned bringing their kid into ( unless you had my parents of course ) and the Hot Topic of now is nowhere near what it was back 20 something years ago. Same with Haunt. 

[jbeast]

Fearfest was definitely less tame than now days.

Who could forget actual Midget Wrestling matches during Fearfest in the middle of the Festhaus! Who thought of that?

There seemed to be generally more scares along the midways, alot more fog and if I remember right, real bugs in one of the mazes that was close to The Racer back then. I think it was a Mummy themed walk through and they had real bugs enclosed in glass as part of it. Yep, those were the early days of the event.

There was so much fog, that riding Drop Zone, you could not see the ground below you after a certain point. It was freaky fun!

[3dgyrat]

Event wise I'll say Fear Fest. I never got to experience Fear Fest, but I heard lots of good things about it from my cousins growing up. They were teenagers at the time. And the pictures I've seen of it make it seem way cooler than what they have now. I wish it was still a thing I could experience. Maybe even doing one weekend in October as Fear Fest and the rest as the Haunt they have now. 

 

But ride wise, I can't think of one that was really a "mistake" to get rid of. Any coasters I've seen get closed seemed to have logical reasoning getting closed. But keep in mind I'm only in my 20's, so that means I've only seen Son of Beast, Vortex, and Firehawk get closed if I recall correctly. 

[kingsislandfan1972]

I'd say Phantom Theater because they could have just updated the animatronics as time went on, and there wasn't a Copyright on the Phantom Theater characters so they could keep it unlike Scooby-Doo. (Which was still better with that theming than the current Boo Blasters theming in my opinion.)

 

[Vortex1987]

On 1/19/2018 at 4:50 AM, Captain Nemo said:

I wouldn't say putting Santa hats on 1/3 of the animatronics counts as going "All out".

 

My vote is TRTR. While understandably the concept of the ride had to change with the selling of Paramount, I feel Cedar Fair took the cheap route with the retheme (if one can actually call 'Inception' music a theme). The Top Spin was a popular and great addition to the park. 

Durga (the goddess in the show building) is not intellectual property of Paramount. Durga is a actually Goddess in Hindi religion... No one owns the image, same as razor shard icy stalactites, or a red hot boiling lava pit.

I agree here. 

 

How the heck can a Hindu Goddess be copyrighted? Cedar Fair took the cheapest way out and DESTROYED it. 

 

Maybe with a simple re-theme it could've lived. 

[TombRaiderFTW]

On 1/19/2018 at 4:50 AM, Captain Nemo said:

Durga (the goddess in the show building) is not intellectual property of Paramount. Durga is a actually Goddess in Hindi religion... No one owns the image, same as razor shard icy stalactites, or a red hot boiling lava pit.

 

1 hour ago, Vortex1987 said:

I agree here. 

How the heck can a Hindu Goddess be copyrighted? Cedar Fair took the cheapest way out and DESTROYED it. 

Maybe with a simple re-theme it could've lived. 

So, no one asked for this novel, but you've touched on a special interest of mine and now you will pay:

The image/presence of Durga(**) was not specifically copywritten, nor was the concept of icy stalactites, nor was the idea of a lava pit.

The entire concept of a ride like Tomb Raider: The Ride was patented to Paramount Parks, Inc. You can see the patent here: link. (It's got some cool pictures I geek out pretty hard over.)

Included in the patent are the following descriptions, paraphrased:

• A HUSS Giant Top Spin ride (or similar product with at least three rows of theatrical seating) synchronized with theatrical effects, including music, lighting effects, audio, fog, fire, water, smoke, and/or steam
• Using said ride to stop riders at a number of predetermined locations in sync with music, lighting, audio, etc.
• Seated-integrated loose article receptacles, such as a bag
• An exact description of the TRTR ride cycle, including the locations of the gondola, descriptions of when the gondola was meant to lock and unlock, and which effects were meant to trigger at each location
• A description of the antechamber (the room before the preshow) that contains specifically named items like stone archways and the stone monkey statues that were used during the filming of Lara Croft: Tomb Raider (2001), as well as the presence of fog in the room
• A description of the preshow room that names specific actions like the antechamber door closing behind guests (including accompanying sound effects), the faux fire lamps, the use of the preshow screen, and of course the audio and video of the preshow itself
• The door itself between the preshow room and the ride chamber (##)
• The headlights on the front of the gondola
• The jewels in Durga's (**) hands and the fact that they are backlit, as well as the lasers in Durga's eyes that scan the gondola
• Blacklight effects in the ride chamber (##), period
• The aforementioned razor sharp ice spikes and their use of mist, dripping water, and fiber-optic lights
• The volcano and its use of mist, water, lighting, and fire (the last of which was never part of the ride experience, to my knowledge, but can you imagine?!)

Admittedly, that link DOES say that the process of patenting the ride was abandoned as of 1/10/2005. I don't know how or where to go to corroborate that date or discover whether or not it would have given Paramount additional legal standing to sue if Cedar Fair had been less heavy-handed with the retheme. I'm also under the impression that Cedar Fair absorbed Paramount Parks, Inc., so one could assume that ownership of the patent would have passed to Cedar Fair if it still had any legal merit.

If the patent wasn't the reason for the heavy-handed retheme, then it was almost certainly overcautious lawyers and Kinzel-era "thrills first" thinking of the time. Note that short of the loose article bags and the preshow-ride chamber door, none of the things I pointed out from the patent remained when The Crypt opened in 2008--not even the presence of a third row on the gondola. It got reduced down to two rows beginning in 2008.

Even then, though, if you ignore the patent, that ride was of course chock-full of references to Lara Croft: Tomb Raider, which remains Paramount-trademarked film. These references included but were not limited to:

• The Triangle of Light (a magical artifact from the film) in the queue, antechamber, and ride chamber
• Queue music that sampled the film score and ride audio that sampled film dialogue
• Monkey statues that were used in filming
• A preshow room whose decor was an in-spirit recreation of the Cambodian temple scene in the film, including the Brahman statue behind the preshow screen
• A preshow film that used audio and video from the film

If you take those away... there's not much left to work with. There's more than what The Crypt operated with, sure, but you've taken a lot away from the experience. It's not inconceivable that Kinzel-era CF saw what remained and decided to ditch the theming (which was never their forte, and Paramount hadn't exactly kept up with what was there) and go for thrills, which is definitely what the first 1.5 years of The Crypt had to offer.

Curiously, Kings Dominion's Tomb Raider: Firefall/The Crypt stayed almost intact throughout its life and only lost its one reference to the Triangle of Light. It straight up kept its monkey statues AND audio references to the Lara Croft: Tomb Raider film score. Which makes me think all the more that Kings Island's drastic de-theming was more because of the patent than anything else. Kings Dominion's ride was not patented and (in my non-lawyer-y opinion) did not match the description of the KI ride's patent. But, that's just my guess!

---

** = It should be noted that the patent itself claims the god represented in the ride chamber is Shiva. Over the years of being curious, I've never found a depiction of Shiva or Durga (or any other Hindu deity) that seemed conclusive enough to say. Either way, presenting a deity of a real-world religion as the antagonist of a theme park ride is... a choice, and perhaps a product of its time that wouldn't and shouldn't be repeated today.

## = I do love that the patent refers to the ride chamber as the Heart of the Tomb. That's a cool name.

[Vortex1987]

4 minutes ago, TombRaiderFTW said:

 

So, no one asked for this novel, but you've touched on a special interest of mine and now you will pay:

The image/presence of Durga(**) was not specifically copywritten, nor was the concept of icy stalactites, nor was the idea of a lava pit.

The entire concept of a ride like Tomb Raider: The Ride was patented to Paramount Parks, Inc. You can see the patent here: link. (It's got some cool pictures I geek out pretty hard over.)

Included in the patent are the following descriptions, paraphrased:

• A HUSS Giant Top Spin ride (or similar product with at least three rows of theatrical seating) synchronized with theatrical effects, including music, lighting effects, audio, fog, fire, water, smoke, and/or steam
• Using said ride to stop riders at a number of predetermined locations in sync with music, lighting, audio, etc.
• Seated-integrated loose article receptacles, such as a bag
• An exact description of the TRTR ride cycle, including the locations of the gondola, descriptions of when the gondola was meant to lock and unlock, and which effects were meant to trigger at each location
• A description of the antechamber (the room before the preshow) that contains specifically named items like stone archways and the stone monkey statues that were used during the filming of Lara Croft: Tomb Raider (2001), as well as the presence of fog in the room
• A description of the preshow room that names specific actions like the antechamber door closing behind guests (including accompanying sound effects), the faux fire lamps, the use of the preshow screen, and of course the audio and video of the preshow itself
• The door itself between the preshow room and the ride chamber (##)
• The headlights on the front of the gondola
• The jewels in Durga's (**) hands and the fact that they are backlit, as well as the lasers in Durga's eyes that scan the gondola
• Blacklight effects in the ride chamber (##), period
• The aforementioned razor sharp ice spikes and their use of mist, dripping water, and fiber-optic lights
• The volcano and its use of mist, water, lighting, and fire (the last of which was never part of the ride experience, to my knowledge, but can you imagine?!)

Admittedly, that link DOES say that the process of patenting the ride was abandoned as of 1/10/2005. I don't know how or where to go to corroborate that date or discover whether or not it would have given Paramount additional legal standing to sue if Cedar Fair had been less heavy-handed with the retheme. I'm also under the impression that Cedar Fair absorbed Paramount Parks, Inc., so one could assume that ownership of the patent would have passed to Cedar Fair if it still had any legal merit.

If the patent wasn't the reason for the heavy-handed retheme, then it was almost certainly overcautious lawyers and Kinzel-era "thrills first" thinking of the time. Note that short of the loose article bags and the preshow-ride chamber door, none of the things I pointed out from the patent remained when The Crypt opened in 2008--not even the presence of a third row on the gondola. It got reduced down to two rows beginning in 2008.

Even then, though, if you ignore the patent, that ride was of course chock-full of references to Lara Croft: Tomb Raider, which remains Paramount-trademarked film. These references included but were not limited to:

• The Triangle of Light in the queue, antechamber, and ride chamber
• Queue music that sampled the film score and ride audio that sampled film dialogue
• Monkey statues that were used in filming
• A preshow room whose decor was an in-spirit recreation of the Cambodian temple scene in the film, including the Brahman statue behind the preshow screen
• A preshow film that used audio and video from the film

If you take those away... there's not much left to work with. There's more than what The Crypt operated with, sure, but you've taken a lot away from the experience. It's not inconceivable that Kinzel-era CF saw what remained and decided to ditch the theming (which was never their forte, and Paramount hadn't exactly kept up with what was there) and go for thrills, which is definitely what the first 1.5 years of The Crypt had to offer.

Curiously, Kings Dominion's Tomb Raider: Firefall/The Crypt stayed almost intact throughout its life and only lost a single reference to the Triangle of Light. It straight up kept its monkey statues AND audio references to the Lara Croft: Tomb Raider film score. Which makes me think all the more that Kings Island's drastic de-theming was more because of the patent than anything else. Kings Dominion's ride was not patented and (in my non-lawyer-y opinion) did not match the description of the KI ride's patent. But, that's just my guess!

---

** = It should be noted that the patent itself claims the god represented in the ride chamber is Shiva. Over the years of being curious, I've never found a depiction of Shiva or Durga (or any other Hindu deity) that seemed conclusive enough to say. Either way, presenting a deity of a real-world religion as the antagonist of a theme park ride is... a choice, and perhaps a product of its time that wouldn't and shouldn't be repeated today.

## = I do love that the patent refers to the ride chamber as the Heart of the Tomb. That's a cool name.

 

Thank you for this. 

I do have a wack hunch that chopping off the 3rd row on the ride did play a factor in the GTS's demise.  But who knows.

 

I'd give anything to be able to experience the ride in its original form. I unluckily did get to ride it in 2008. And 2010. That 2008 cycle, that was scary. And I don't mean that in a good way.

[silver2005]

@TombRaiderFTW That feels like a very Dan Snyder move when he was at SIX to essentially patent/trademark everything.  

[SonofBaconator]

Phantom Theater IP.

When I say this, I’m not only referring to the ride, but all aspects related the story, theme, characters that were essentially wiped from the park. The only semblance of this was the recycling of props during Haunt. The park could’ve used the IP for a seasonal Fearfest/Haunt building that focused on the old ride’s story and characters but they didn’t. They could have character meet and greets during the regular season or even during haunt but they didn’t. They could’ve sold merchandise specific to the characters, but again they didn’t.
 

It wasn’t until 2022 when the park finally decided to take advantage of the IP through the show in the KI theater and small amounts of merchandise. With all the characters that were created for the park, the applicants for what they can do are limitless, yet they don’t capitalize on it. A while ago I shared some merchandise ideas that someone made online which is what’s provided in the images you see. When it comes to original IP, The Phantom Theater could be a cash cow yet Paramount chose to archive it and CF has only dabbled in it. I fear that with the merger coming that they’ll focus on the new IP’s acquired and Phantom Theater will again be shelved.