Cedar Fair attendance down 3% through July 4th

[BoddaH1994]

On 7/11/2018 at 1:42 PM, Kenban said:

I think it is important to note that this is chain wide, not just Kings Island.

You cannot directly link any number from this to the park.

Several cuts have been apparent in the past week or so.

Smaller shops disappearing, less staffing, and other closures.

We knew that cuts had to be made.

Im beginning to worry about what Winterfest might look like.

[IBEW_Sparky]

Very possibly an empty parking lot.

[Shawn Meyer]

I hope people start coming to Kings Island soon. I would hate to see Cedar Fair go bankrupt because of the low attendance season we're having right now.

[disco2000]

9 hours ago, BoddaH1994 said:

Several cuts have been apparent in the past week or so.

Smaller shops disappearing, less staffing, and other closures.

We knew that cuts had to be made.

Im beginning to worry about what Winterfest might look like.

We are a fan site and only the Banshee gift shop has been mentioned.

I have counted 12 different types of "cuts" since the quarterly report was announced and that is lumping some things together or the list could be longer.  Maybe some are purely coincidental...

I suspect that collectively as a forum our attendance numbers are down as well.  Let's get to the park and spend money.

If we as fans haven't noticed the cuts, the cuts will continue until they are readily obvious to the once per decade visitor.  By then it may be too late.

I heard some funny they are doing "insert comment here" to save money anecdotes, so people are noticing.

I watched a dude with a souvenir cup on Banshee walk up to line and was told he couldn't take it on and he chucked it into the garbage and mumbled he wasn't going to come back to this place anyway as he couldn't find places to refill the cup.  He certainly didn't experience #KIBestDay and many aren't either.  Droves of people certainly didn't on Friday.

Attendance was low today.  Walk-on for a night-time Beast front-row seat.  Has the precedent now been set that the park may close if the guest count gets too low or it rains, so people will now only come when there is no chance or rain?  It appears that way reading FB comments.  Certainly not a way to increase attendance.

I am not expecting the next quarterly report to be any more encouraging, which could really have an impact on Haunt and Winterfest...

[malem]

I haven't made it to Kings Island as often as I'd like this season. For me, it's a combination doing more travel to out-of-town destinations and of having a longer season to visit Kings Island (for Winterfest). Less of my limited summer vacation time is being spent in Ohio.

As "staycations" trend down and wages increase in a bullish economy, regional parks will have to find more ways to compete for leisure dollars and control staffing costs.

4 hours ago, disco2000 said:

Attendance was low today.  Walk-on for a night-time Beast front-row seat.  Has the precedent now been set that the park may close if the guest count gets too low or it rains, so people will now only come when there is no chance or rain?  It appears that way reading FB comments.  Certainly not a way to increase attendance. 

Days with a stormy forecast that turn out better than expected (like yesterday) are usually great days to visit the park, although many food/drink/merchandise locations close when attendance is too low.

Sometimes, you get days like last Friday that are true rain-outs. There was a combination of very low attendance and severe storms late in the day that put reopening rides in doubt.

[Winterfestguy]

Have had a season pass for many years and can say attendance is definitely down this season - kept thinking after July 4th attendance would pick up, but it hasn’t.   Maybe the lack of a new attraction for KI this year, the weird extremely hot / rainy weather, or the inconsistency in food options has kept some away.  And now with schools starting up in next few weeks in surrounding states like Indiana, the lower than normal attendance will likely continue for the remainder of the summer season.

[CoastersRZ]

I have been visiting Kings Island almost every Wednesday this summer.  The last couple of visits have been the busiest so far this season.  It was a really warm June. 

[disco2000]

20 hours ago, malem said:

I haven't made it to Kings Island as often as I'd like this season. For me, it's a combination doing more travel to out-of-town destinations and of having a longer season to visit Kings Island (for Winterfest). Less of my limited summer vacation time is being spent in Ohio.

 

You and a couple hundred thousand people amongst the CF chain are apparently doing the same thing! 

I have mentioned to others and this certainly validates what I have said that Winterfest has caused KI fatigue.  Now that the park is open for so much longer, folks are getting their "fix" more months of the year and without a long off-season, many are still burned out from the previous year and are feeling like your sentiment of visit later...The park is certainly counting on having a great Winterfest and CF is banking on a great Winterfest turnout in their parks that have it, but what if the weather is really bad and the crowds stay away or people feel oh we did that last year and stay away this year...CF could then be looking at 3 consecutive quarters of down results to start 2019...what impacts will that have short-term and long term?

[BeeastFarmer]

Cross threading a bit here, but I bet the leadership at KI and CF aren't laughing at Kentucky Kingdom and Holiday World being competition or even knowing they exist.

[BoddaH1994]

2 hours ago, Winterfestguy said:

Have had a season pass for many years and can say attendance is definitely down this season - kept thinking after July 4th attendance would pick up, but it hasn’t.   Maybe the lack of a new attraction for KI this year, the weird extremely hot / rainy weather, or the inconsistency in food options has kept some away.  And now with schools starting up in next few weeks in surrounding states like Indiana, the lower than normal attendance will likely continue for the remainder of the summer season.

What do you mean by inconsistency of food options, and how do you feel that it affects attendance?

[malem]

Kings Island typically schedules discount bring-a-friend days at the end of summer, but they've expanded quite a bit this year. The offer is valid every operating day from July 29-August 26. https://www.visitkingsisland.com/play/events/gold-platinum-pass-bring-friends-day

 

[JubJester]

They're going to need some sort of attraction next year. I think just having a new restaurant didn't draw people in. 

Where would I find attendance numbers in years past? Particularly Paramounts. Anyone know? I'm interested in seeing them.

[westcoaster]

Plus to some degree look at the Wilderness, to South being built at Folkywood, mentioned KK n HW, theres competition sure.

 

At end of day Smiles, Service, price point goes a long way.....

 

 

[KIfan73]

On 7/23/2018 at 11:12 PM, jtro223 said:

Cross threading a bit here, but I bet the leadership at KI and CF aren't laughing at Kentucky Kingdom and Holiday World being competition or even knowing they exist.

 

25 minutes ago, westcoaster said:

Plus to some degree look at the Wilderness, to South being built at Folkywood, mentioned KK n HW, theres competition sure.

 

At end of day Smiles, Service, price point goes a long way.....

 

 

And of course there's this....Ohio is getting a $2 billion entertainment park four times the size of Disneyland

[shark6495]

Rides will get you an attendance spike but it never is sustainable. If you want to see increasing numbers you need to improve the little things that make people want to come back to the park.

Over priced sub par food, lackluster employees, etc doesn’t make people want to return. A ride makes you visit once, the other parts makes you want to return.


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[BeeastFarmer]

I don't get all the gloom and doom since this report was issued.  It gives no specifics, but the pressure would be (I assume) at the parks that have added new roller coasters this year:  KD, CP and CGA.  I would conjecture that KI would have a down attendance year because there is no headliner this year, 70,000 turnstyle clicks (based on a 3M count) is an ouch but I would expect that after a record setter we had last year.

I disagree with shark6495's statement above.  The Beast is still drawing guests after almost 40 years.  I'd say that investment has sustained attendance numbers.  Probably one of the wisest investments the park has ever made.  I've noticed a huge difference in the employees this year.  Every food experience I have had has been good.  I've seen vast improvement.  Still a long ways to go, but progress has come by leaps and bounds this year.

In spite of the Chicken Little type of paranoia that has cast its' shadow over this thread, I am more excited for the future of KI than I have been since becoming a fan in 2014.

[shark6495]

I don't get all the gloom and doom since this report was issued....
I disagree with shark6495's statement above.  The Beast is still drawing guests after almost 40 years.  I'd say that investment has sustained attendance numbers.  Probably one of the wisest investments the park has ever made.  I've noticed a huge difference in the employees this year.  Every food experience I have had has been good.  I've seen vast improvement.  Still a long ways to go, but progress has come by leaps and bounds this year.

I shortened your quote just so you know I’m replying to you but it’s not a long long quote...

I’ve been going to the park since I was little starting in 86.
You picked the one ride I can’t debate you on. The Beast is still a world wide phenom.

However, my point still stands. If you don’t do the little things right, food service for example, it leaves a negative impression on the guests. The new coaster will get people to visit but to sustain visits you need people to want to come back.
I’m not talking about the people who will visit no matter what. Most of us fall in that category.

But the people/families with money to spend are going to pick and choose where they spend it. It’s not going to be based on a roller coaster but the whole experience. If you have a negative experience you won’t be quick to return. For example, in my family we have held gold passes for the last 5-6 years. This year we didn’t get them due to the mounting negatives over the years. We may not get them next year. We have instead used the money on our 3 gold passes to be spent elsewhere.





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[BoddaH1994]

6 minutes ago, shark6495 said:

 

I shortened your quote just so you know I’m replying to you but it’s not a long long quote...

I’ve been going to the park since I was little starting in 86.
You picked the one ride I can’t debate you on. The Beast is still a world wide phenom.

However, my point still stands. If you don’t do the little things right, food service for example, it leaves a negative impression on the guests. The new coaster will get people to visit but to sustain visits you need people to want to come back.
I’m not talking about the people who will visit no matter what. Most of us fall in that category.

But the people/families with money to spend are going to pick and choose where they spend it. It’s not going to be based on a roller coaster but the whole experience. If you have a negative experience you won’t be quick to return. For example, in my family we have held gold passes for the last 5-6 years. This year we didn’t get them due to the mounting negatives over the years. We may not get them next year. We have instead used the money on our 3 gold passes to be spent elsewhere.





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All about amortization. They assume they can profit off of a ride within a set number of years. 3-5, more than likely. From there it more or less goes into the general sales package of what the park offers.

I’m curious- with the exception of the obvious factor of weather, what would you guess is the top 5 years for the attendance drop? Now mind you, this is an industry thing, not a Cedar Fair thing necessarily.

[shark6495]

I have no idea. If I were to guess nationwide and industry wide... I’d say 2002 (year following 9/11), economy drops in 2000 and 2008, this year, and maybe a time in he mid 90s?


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[BoddaH1994]

You see, it's a weird scenario.  It's easy to write off that the whole industry is down with generalizations but at the same time what happens at Knott's doesn't have any bearing on what happens at KI.  What happens at Kennywood doesn't affect Dollywood.  Maybe there is a shift in widespread consumer behavior, but it also could be that each park is presented with its own problems that culminated this year.  Maybe a mixture of both.

[shark6495]

I agree. I’m confused at your question. My comments were specifically aimed at KI not the whole industry.


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[BeeastFarmer]

2 hours ago, shark6495 said:

 

However, my point still stands. If you don’t do the little things right, food service for example, it leaves a negative impression on the guests. The new coaster will get people to visit but to sustain visits you need people to want to come back.
I’m not talking about the people who will visit no matter what. Most of us fall in that category.

But the people/families with money to spend are going to pick and choose where they spend it. It’s not going to be based on a roller coaster but the whole experience. If you have a negative experience you won’t be quick to return. For example, in my family we have held gold passes for the last 5-6 years. This year we didn’t get them due to the mounting negatives over the years. We may not get them next year. We have instead used the money on our 3 gold passes to be spent elsewhere.

 

I wish we were talking about this over coffee or a Blue Ice Cream cone on IS with the fountains in the background and the wonderful music because it is so hard to convey intent in this manner of communication.

I stopped going to KI and getting passes from 2010 until 2013 because of what you described.  But when I took a chance and went again in May 2014, things were so much different.  For the better.  Food has, in my experience, vastly improved this season.  It's not perfect but it's on an upward trajectory.  I see all the little things that the park has focused on this and last year, and it seems like they are attacking them.  Better music.  Disposable cups.  Moved smoking areas.  LANDSCAPING.  (The park is absolutely stunning this year!) Winterfest.  Ride operations.  These are all things the park has listened to and responded to.  If you haven't been to the park then you wouldn't see them.

 

Based on previous posts, I think you are looking for a Disney experience at KI.  Those are pretty high expectations.  I do think the employees should always reach for a higher standard.  But KI will never be a Disney, just as KK will never be a KI.  If I go to Ruths Chris, I have different expectations than I do when I go to Texas Roadhouse than I do Golden Corral.  All three may have steak, but I would expect more out of Ruths Chris, and I would pay much much more.  (Although, I do have to say, KK is much better than Golden Corral; it's more Outback level to me!)  

I had a Dollywood Gold Pass for a year and didn't renew.  Not because the staff/park/rides were not good but because I have a limited amount of time and money to spend.  KI Winterfest solidified that for me.  I was that impressed with it.  I probably won't get a pass at DW anytime soon not because of the rude ride ops and trolley ops when I went for  day in May this year, but because KI is much closer and more practical for me.

 

All that to say...I don't think there is a mass exodus of gold pass holders.  I think if attendance is down at KI specifically this year, it can be accounted for and the leadership is doing what it can to recapture the lost gate scans.   I'm very excited about the future for KI. 

 

[shark6495]

I wish we were talking about this over coffee or a Blue Ice Cream cone on IS with the fountains in the background and the wonderful music because it is so hard to convey intent in this manner of communication.
I stopped going to KI and getting passes from 2010 until 2013 because of what you described.  But when I took a chance and went again in May 2014, things were so much different.  For the better.  Food has, in my experience, vastly improved this season.  It's not perfect but it's on an upward trajectory.  I see all the little things that the park has focused on this and last year, and it seems like they are attacking them.  Better music.  Disposable cups.  Moved smoking areas.  LANDSCAPING.  (The park is absolutely stunning this year!) Winterfest.  Ride operations.  These are all things the park has listened to and responded to.  If you haven't been to the park then you wouldn't see them.
 
Based on previous posts, I think you are looking for a Disney experience at KI.  Those are pretty high expectations.  I do think the employees should always reach for a higher standard.  But KI will never be a Disney, just as KK will never be a KI.  If I go to Ruths Chris, I have different expectations than I do when I go to Texas Roadhouse than I do Golden Corral.  All three may have steak, but I would expect more out of Ruths Chris, and I would pay much much more.  (Although, I do have to say, KK is much better than Golden Corral; it's more Outback level to me!)  
I had a Dollywood Gold Pass for a year and didn't renew.  Not because the staff/park/rides were not good but because I have a limited amount of time and money to spend.  KI Winterfest solidified that for me.  I was that impressed with it.  I probably won't get a pass at DW anytime soon not because of the rude ride ops and trolley ops when I went for  day in May this year, but because KI is much closer and more practical for me.
 
All that to say...I don't think there is a mass exodus of gold pass holders.  I think if attendance is down at KI specifically this year, it can be accounted for and the leadership is doing what it can to recapture the lost gate scans.   I'm very excited about the future for KI. 
 

I agree and I think if we did sit down over blue ice cream or a beer at the Reds building you would see my intent is more “I see much more potential and want the park to be the best” versus “they never do anything right”.

And you’re right that’s fair. I want the Disney experience because when I was a kid kI did have similar to Disney experiences and I want that for my kids as well. Seeing mascots in the park, food experiences, etc. but also, it’s not hard to try and replicate what Disney does on the customer service side. Outback, Texas Roadgouse, or Ruth Chris can all have the same standard of service. Of course atmosphere and food will be different but there’s no reason service can’t be similar (and that’s how I feel about Disney vs KI).

You’re also right I have only gone one time this year and I didn’t see anything super different than last year. So it’s possible I went on a down day.

Winterfest was great. It was a blast. I hope it keeps getting better.




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[IndyGuy4KI]

Assuming KI has the same 3% decrease, and I think we can all see the decrease for us that are there a lot. I think the weather has a big impact, but would like to know how HW and KK are doing this year. Is the trend the same there? I am not seeing HW grabbing for attendance with discount tickets. Do they not care or are they not seeing the same thing?  

One of the things that may have not have helped was the inefficient billboards that were placed this year. Out of all the billboards in Indy - HW, KK, IB, CP, and KI.  I would put KI's dead last at being an efficient billboard. If I were to make a decision on a park based off the billboards on the highways in Indy, I would not be going to KI. 

Description - A Great Pumpkin Coaster is their attraction on the sign taking up 2/3 of the sign. The sign does not have much color at all, and seeing it going down the road you have no idea what the sign was even advertising,  looking for a name which has a smaller printed "Kings Island" in the bottom corner. No prices, don't remember there being a slogan. It took me 2 times driving past one to realize it was even a KI sign.

I am no marketing person, but I would have Kings Island dead center taking 2/3 of the sign with the KI skylight (Bursting with color) around the outside (with DB, MT, and Banshee a little more bold) highlighting all the things to do with their new slogan It's amazing in here under the name! 

 

 

[disco2000]

16 minutes ago, shark6495 said:

 I want the Disney experience because when I was a kid kI did have similar to Disney experiences and I want that for my kids as well. Seeing mascots in the park, food experiences, etc. but also, it’s not hard to try and replicate what Disney does on the customer service side. Outback, Texas Roadgouse, or Ruth Chris can all have the same standard of service. Of course atmosphere and food will be different but there’s no reason service can’t be similar (and that’s how I feel about Disney vs KI).

You’re also right I have only gone one time this year and I didn’t see anything super different than last year. So it’s possible I went on a down day.

Winterfest was great. It was a blast. I hope it keeps getting better.




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I am certainly in the same mindset of "I see much more potential and want the park to be the best"...

Regarding mascots/theming/experience in the park, I think that part of the problem is that KI is seen as a season pass park when compared to other parks it competes against and as such I think a lot of the atmosphere is not noticeably appreciated by the guests that attend, yet at the same time it not being there subconsciously negatively impacts guests opinion of the park.  I think back to the early Paramount days and the Star Trek and other characters walking around and you wouldn't see them get the same attention as characters at other parks. Not many guests would stop or even form a line to get their picture with them.  Did that influence management decision at the time to scale back the amount of characters roaming Kings Island?

Take a look at the current Lunch with the Peanuts Gang at KI versus Carowinds - at the end they do like 3 songs for a meet and greet with the characters and at Carowinds the line is long and sometimes not everyone gets their picture because the three songs are over, yet at KI the characters are for the most part ignored and just stand there most of the time (sometimes they get a crowd for meet and greet but not as consistent as other parks).  Or the relative lack of lines within the park when the characters are out.  We also all recognize the difference in intellectual property rights that dictates what characters are at what parks...but that is a whole different discussion.

Other than enthusiasts, most of the folks I talk to see Back Lot, Drop Tower, Invertigo, Bat, etc. as basically the same ride as when Paramount had the park, it is just a new name (can you believe that!). In other words, the theming was lost/not appreciated by them.  Does that mentality drive decisions at KI?  I loved the whole Top Gun experience and felt a let down when it became Flight Deck and wonder what they would do to the theming of that ride with a planned sequel for next year if it were still Top Gun...(and I realize the IP costs associated with keeping it the Top Gun name and why it was changed)

Think about the Banshee gift shop being eliminated - the merchandise offerings helped with the overall atmosphere of the park even if it didn't make any money.  Now a first time guests walks through and is like what is this... 

So one has to wonder does the fact that KI being a season pass park impact what attention they put into the little things?  Are they suffering from the "we are Cedar Fair and people will attend regardless" mentality?  Even if exit surveys say people don't care about theming, etc., the lack of it does leave an impression as well whether the guest realizes it or not...

[KIfan73]

I'm going to blame the new entrance.  I've been to Kings Island at least ten times since they've put it in, and I still am not sure where to aim, even after I've started turning left!    It's amazing that one of the largest amusement parks on Earth has an entrance lane narrower than you'd find at a McDonald's.  It is very confusing.

Maybe there's a lot of people that just haven't figured out how to get in and they've just kept driving!

In all seriousness, I've thought for years they need a grand banner/sign you drive under when you enter Kings Island drive (either from the north or south) like you see at Disney.

[McSalsa]

2 hours ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

Assuming KI has the same 3% decrease, and I think we can all see the decrease for us that are there a lot. I think the weather has a big impact, but would like to know how HW and KK are doing this year. Is the trend the same there? I am not seeing HW grabbing for attendance with discount tickets. Do they not care or are they not seeing the same thing?  

One of the things that may have not have helped was the inefficient billboards that were placed this year. Out of all the billboards in Indy - HW, KK, IB, CP, and KI.  I would put KI's dead last at being an efficient billboard. If I were to make a decision on a park based off the billboards on the highways in Indy, I would not be going to KI. 

Description - A Great Pumpkin Coaster is their attraction on the sign taking up 2/3 of the sign. The sign does not have much color at all, and seeing it going down the road you have no idea what the sign was even advertising,  looking for a name which has a smaller printed "Kings Island" in the bottom corner. No prices, don't remember there being a slogan. It took me 2 times driving past one to realize it was even a KI sign.

I am no marketing person, but I would have Kings Island dead center taking 2/3 of the sign with the KI skylight (Bursting with color) around the outside (with DB, MT, and Banshee a little more bold) highlighting all the things to do with their new slogan It's amazing in here under the name! 

 

 

I cannot be 100% sure because I have only been there 1 day this year, but I was at Holiday World last Saturday and it got pretty darn packed. The waterpark (the biggest draw at HW) was wall-to-wall people in the afternoon with nearly all slides having 45 minute plus waits, and I even had to wait 5 minutes for the Lazy River. And this was with a 50% chance for rain, which may have driven some of the crowds away. And the biggest discount we could get was only $2 off gate price.  Granted, after 6pm as the water park neared close the crowds dropped to much more manageable levels but at peak hours, it was packed. They seem to be doing fine, at least from what I can tell.

Though this was just 1 day, and Holiday World has not released attendance numbers since Thunderbird opened. (Apparently it did not increase their attendance much or they even had a drop- I imagine KK re-opening may have had a effect on that though)

[BeeastFarmer]

2 hours ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

Assuming KI has the same 3% decrease, and I think we can all see the decrease for us that are there a lot. I think the weather has a big impact, but would like to know how HW and KK are doing this year. Is the trend the same there? I am not seeing HW grabbing for attendance with discount tickets. Do they not care or are they not seeing the same thing?  

 

 

 

Neither of these parks are part of a publicly traded company.  I haven't been to HW, but the visits I have had to KK seem to be about the same as last year.  

 

And assuming KI has had a 3% drop, that is 70K gate clicks based on a 3M annual attendance rate.  If the park can safely accommodate 60K guests at one time (I have heard that number batted around, not official or sourceable.)  I'd say they will continue offering incentives.  With perfect weather, incentives etc, that deficit could theoretically be made up in a matter of days.

[IndyGuy4KI]

48 minutes ago, jtro223 said:

Neither of these parks are part of a publicly traded company.  I haven't been to HW, but the visits I have had to KK seem to be about the same as last year.  

Very true, they do not have share holders. I am sure they do have inventors (esp KK) wanting to get their return back though.

[BeeastFarmer]

No doubt, @IndyGuy4KI.  The pressure is less pronounced with a park like KK, because they can make decisions quickly and without regard regulatory requirements imposed on companies like SIX and FUN.