Timberwolf upgrade concept

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

A little concept I came up with. If the park were to want to compete with Riverbend and other concert venues to bring back big name acts to the park, they'd need to upgrade timberwolf. The idea I came up with requires the removal of Congo Falls and Invertigo and would also get a separate entrance from the front gate area and you would also be able to access it from the Action Zone plaza. This idea allows them to have a much bigger plaza and would be allow them to use it for other things like special events and stuff. It would also be renamed to Kings Island Music Center. This is just a concept nothing official from the park.

 

[Captain Nemo]

I definitely like the concept. Timber wolf is a big eyesore and definitely out of style and date. I've been inside those trailers behind the stage and it is definitely in much need of an upgrade!

The idea that it has its own entrance is a big plus. I can see hopefully something like this when we get our front gate upgrade (hopefully soon)

[Oldschool75]

41 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

A little concept I came up with. If the park were to want to compete with Riverbend and other concert venues to bring back big name acts to the park, they'd need to upgrade timberwolf. The idea I came up with requires the removal of Congo Falls and Invertigo and would also get a separate entrance from the front gate area and you would also be able to access it from the Action Zone plaza. This idea allows them to have a much bigger plaza and would be allow them to use it for other things like special events and stuff. It would also be renamed to Kings Island Music Center. This is just a concept nothing official from the park.

 

The park is not in the business to compete for musical acts these days. Look for TW to be gone relatively soon. I mean, check out the photos of it from Saturday, Land clearing and it literally looks like it's being torn down (just an observation) 

 

[MDMC01]

Oh, wow! Good find @Oldschool75! However, it appears Timberwolf is still on the park map (the online version, that is).

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

27 minutes ago, Oldschool75 said:

The park is not in the business to compete for musical acts these days. Look for TW to be gone relatively soon. I mean, check out the photos of it from Saturday, Land clearing and it literally looks like it's being torn down (just an observation) 

 

This could mean multiple things. It could mean removal or it could mean upgrades to it. The one issue I see with removing it is that SpiritSong brings in a bunch of money for the park. Yes, it was cancelled last year due to covid and it doesn't look like they are doing it this year either. However, I doubt they are done with it. I'm kinda hoping if they are holding off on doing sprit song this year, it is because of upgrades to the theater or removal. If they remove it, they can always block off a section of the parking lot and hold it there like a street festival. Just my thoughts. 

[Captain Nemo]

46 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

This could mean multiple things. It could mean removal or it could mean upgrades to it. The one issue I see with removing it is that SpiritSong brings in a bunch of money for the park. Yes, it was cancelled last year due to covid and it doesn't look like they are doing it this year either. However, I doubt they are done with it. I'm kinda hoping if they are holding off on doing sprit song this year, it is because of upgrades to the theater or removal. If they remove it, they can always block off a section of the parking lot and hold it there like a street festival. Just my thoughts. 

Comes down to what is the better monetary option. Spirit Song is the only real event that takes place at the location yet only happens for one weekend throughout the season. If studies find new expansion better income potential then the days of Timberwolf are running low. It looks like it needs a lot of refurbishment work, money that may not see a return investment if done. So that leaves one other option.

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

3 minutes ago, Captain Nemo said:

Comes down to what is the better monetary option. Spirit Song is the only real event that takes place at the location yet only happens for one weekend throughout the season. If studies find new expansion better income potential then the days of Timberwolf are running low. It looks like it needs a lot of refurbishment work, money that may not see a return investment if done. So that leaves one other option.

Which could be why they would remove it. They can still hold Spirit Song, but they could hold the event somewhere else. Like maybe in this section the parking lot:

 

[ldhudsonjr]

Personally I have to say I wouldn't at all be happy with them removing rides in order to build a bigger concert venue. I'd be much happier seeing them just pull timberwolf out and build a new ride back there, but that's just me I'm sure some of you would like the bigger venue.

[Benjamin22]

It seems like it’d be an odd use of funds to remove Timberwolf this season as I don’t really foresee a new thrill ride or attraction coming to Action Zone. Perhaps those trees were infected with something? I believe trees near The Bat were removed a few seasons ago.

[FUN&ONLY!]

1 hour ago, Oldschool75 said:

The park is not in the business to compete for musical acts these days. Look for TW to be gone relatively soon. I mean, check out the photos of it from Saturday, Land clearing and it literally looks like it's being torn down (just an observation) 

 

I may be wrong, but it looks like Kings Island is just cleaning it up. Last year, Timberwolf was very overgrown, and it looks like they are removing weeds. I don’t seen any part of the amphitheater that has actually been removed.

[SonofBaconator]

I'm not for removing Timberwolf. Once something is gone, its hard to bring back. I'd rather them fix it up and make it work vs demolishing it. We don't need a coaster on every vacant piece of land.

2 hours ago, Oldschool75 said:

The park is not in the business to compete for musical acts these days.

Most music venues are downtown over 20 miles away so there's enough distance for it to work. Its not like Dave Matthews would stop playing at Riverbend to go to Timberwolf. KI could host their own music festival and bring in people who are looking for their big break. 

[KingsIsland1972]

I remember when I worked Security in 2005 and I always got the post where there were Wasp Nests everywhere fence line, in the grass, under the seats.  I couldn't do one show and there would be guests coming asking to move because of the bees or wasps.  I even thought 16 years ago that it needed revamped.  I don't think it needs to be bigger as the audience side goes, but they do need a new stage.  I honestly think it needs to be moved to another part of the park to be honest.  I think back between Racers or even build it where Vortex is.  Now that there is Great Wolf Lodge, they don't need to hear it right that close.  Usually most shows were done by 10 at the latest.  I think having it back by the fireworks could be incorporated with timing of the concerts.  

Quote

 

 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

1 hour ago, ldhudsonjr said:

Personally I have to say I wouldn't at all be happy with them removing rides in order to build a bigger concert venue. I'd be much happier seeing them just pull timberwolf out and build a new ride back there, but that's just me I'm sure some of you would like the bigger venue.

My concept would basically be a multi phase process. The start would be the new stage, new better seating, and a new shaded roof as well as removal of congo and the plaza added there. A few years later, Invertigo would reach the end of it's service life and would be removed and that's when they would add the new entrance to the new music center. 

[BeeastFarmer]

Land clearing?  That is a stretch.  More like removing trees that are at the end their service lives.  They also did this around The Beast queue and the Adventure Express queue.  The also "mauled" a few of the Autumn Blaze Maple trees on the midway in the Area Formerly known as Coney Mall.

[purdude86]

I don't see it leaving anytime soon but I would much rather see it's removal for new rides than for it to be upgraded and take  up more park space.

There is still plenty of area for them to add new stuff over the next years, but I feel like overall they are more likely to remove it than upgrade. There's just no need to remove it until they really need that space.

[ldhudsonjr]

I agree with those saying they're just cleaning up back there, but all this has me thinking: I really can't wait until the next time we go to the park for the first time in a season and see actual land clearing for a new attraction going on. I think being on here and following the Orion decoding thread from when we first saw the patch of land to the announcement was some of the most fun I've had in this hobby lol. Looking forward to doing it again!

[Shaggy]

Most of today's bands/performers/musical acts are contracted through an outside "promoter."  For instance, Live Nation is a concert/act promoter. 

Many promoters, have their own venues.  That, or they have contracts/agreements with independent venues to bring their acts there. Those contracts can differ, depending on the facility and are often financially complex.

Successful venues often use very current technology - not only the staging, lighting and technical needs of today's acts - but also event admissions technology such as mobile barcode scanners, live analytics data, and database-driven sales feeds etc.

Many of those venues also have contracts, or agreements with successful ticketing software/distribution providers  (i.e. Ticketmaster)

 

Kings Island (TMK) does not have a contract, or agreement with major concert promoters (outside of Spirit Song - which I'll get to in a bit.)  So any concerts they *may* do (at this point) would likely be, one-offs.  Kings Island does have a contract with Ticketmaster to not only sell and distribute tickets - but to also supply the software and ticketing equipment on site (such as Boca printers, dumb terminals etc.)  Because of the infrequency of concerts, there's not been a need for KI to invest in the costly ticketing technology themselves. 

That infrequency is due, IMO, to a number of things... competition from other venues (better & larger facilities/better options for inclement elements etc.)  Also, the "face" of concerts has drastically changed in the past 40 years.  Most of today's performers are heavily reliant on theatrics... so they travel with their own stages and massive rigging so they can distract audiences with light shows/hydraulic lifts/scenery changes/fire and special effects etc.  Such performances are best seen at night - or in a darkened venue.  Timberwolf wasn't really built for that - it was built for static performers and bands.  Demands of artists play a role as well - and KI simply isn't in the business to cater to most of today's intricate tech-riders themselves.

Spirit Song is a low-risk, successful event that has proven to be a large draw for decades. The performers are more traditional "static" performers that don't rely heavily on theatrics or complex tech-riders.  Its a "festival", so it is an admissions draw to the park for an entire weekend.  Because of the nature of the concerts, and the fact that it is at a family-oriented theme park - its a huge draw for churches and youth groups across the Midwest.  A great portion of ticket sales are to large groups that are maintained, and return, year after year.  There's a built-in base of buyers that help guarantee that it's a success.  Now, I am not privy to what type of a contract SS's promoter may have with KI... but I'd guess its a simple 4-wall, where they are essentially just renting the venue and KI only retains the profits from park admissions and concessions.  

It is my opinion that the reason Timberwolf still exists is literally because of Spirit Song.  The event is obviously a large enough draw that the park continues to see its merit (As recent as 2020 - which was cancelled due to Covid.)  And as long as Kings Island deems the facility's use for Spirit Song as a viable use of the "real estate", then Timberwolf will continue.  Also, as long as SS's promoter deems the facility adequate, then KI will likely just "maintain" it rather than heavily re-investing.

If the park deems the land's use better suited for something that can be better marketed, or produce a larger return on investment, then it will be removed.  If they are faced with a costly renovation or remodel (in order to maintain some sort of standard for future use) then they'll run the metrics to find out what the better monetary use is.  As of now, its costing them little to nothing to just sit there... and its tucked away in a spot that isn't really prime midway real-estate.

I do not think the land clearing seen this season is reflective of anything related to a removal of Timberwolf - I think its just a simple clearing of foliage overgrowth.

 

 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

1 hour ago, ldhudsonjr said:

I agree with those saying they're just cleaning up back there, but all this has me thinking: I really can't wait until the next time we go to the park for the first time in a season and see actual land clearing for a new attraction going on. I think being on here and following the Orion decoding thread from when we first saw the patch of land to the announcement was some of the most fun I've had in this hobby lol. Looking forward to doing it again!

I do too! The Orion decoding thread was my first one that I was apart of and it was fun! I've read through the Banshee and Mystic Timbers one and those looked like fun too! However, I do think it'll be another few years until we see it. I do want it to come sooner, but I just have this feeling in my mind that we are about to go on a bit of a coaster drought especially with covid and all. I've had the year 2027 in my mind for a while. 

[Winterfestguy]

Several years ago at Coasterstock it was suggested by several to invite a different local band each week to come perform at Timberwolf (CP is already doing something similar as part of their 150 celebration).  This would make good use of the facility, especially during a pandemic using outside for another entertainment option.   Maybe KI is cleaning things up in preparation for such idea.

[ldhudsonjr]

20 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

I do too! The Orion decoding thread was my first one that I was apart of and it was fun! I've read through the Banshee and Mystic Timbers one and those looked like fun too! However, I do think it'll be another few years until we see it. I do want it to come sooner, but I just have this feeling in my mind that we are about to go on a bit of a coaster drought especially with covid and all. I've had the year 2027 in my mind for a while. 

Totally possible. I've been thinking 2025 myself.

[beastfan11]

18 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

We don't need a coaster on every vacant piece of land.

 

What a refreshing statement. Couldn’t agree more. 

[SonofBaconator]

7 hours ago, beastfan11 said:

What a refreshing statement. Couldn’t agree more. 

Especially when there's already vacant space. If you ever visit r/kingsisland you have people putting B&Ms in literally every green space

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

Coaster Nation has put up an article about it:

https://coasternation.com/land-clearing-begins-at-kings-islands-timberwolf-amphitheater/?fbclid=IwAR3PJwi6Jj7LrBLGlGdbJI5PPN01JNzT7NGT62ORA9cv5BIm2zvyFJGNMbc

[Oldschool75]

This could mean multiple things. It could mean removal or it could mean upgrades to it. The one issue I see with removing it is that SpiritSong brings in a bunch of money for the park. Yes, it was cancelled last year due to covid and it doesn't look like they are doing it this year either. However, I doubt they are done with it. I'm kinda hoping if they are holding off on doing sprit song this year, it is because of upgrades to the theater or removal. If they remove it, they can always block off a section of the parking lot and hold it there like a street festival. Just my thoughts. 

They don’t make much off SS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MDMC01]

18 hours ago, Shaggy said:

Most of today's bands/performers/musical acts are contracted through an outside "promoter."  For instance, Live Nation is a concert/act promoter. 

Many promoters, have their own venues.  That, or they have contracts/agreements with independent venues to bring their acts there. Those contracts can differ, depending on the facility and are often financially complex.

Successful venues often use very current technology - not only the staging, lighting and technical needs of today's acts - but also event admissions technology such as mobile barcode scanners, live analytics data, and database-driven sales feeds etc.

Many of those venues also have contracts, or agreements with successful ticketing software/distribution providers  (i.e. Ticketmaster)

 

Kings Island (TMK) does not have a contract, or agreement with major concert promoters (outside of Spirit Song - which I'll get to in a bit.)  So any concerts they *may* do (at this point) would likely be, one-offs.  Kings Island does have a contract with Ticketmaster to not only sell and distribute tickets - but to also supply the software and ticketing equipment on site (such as Boca printers, dumb terminals etc.)  Because of the infrequency of concerts, there's not been a need for KI to invest in the costly ticketing technology themselves. 

That infrequency is due, IMO, to a number of things... competition from other venues (better & larger facilities/better options for inclement elements etc.)  Also, the "face" of concerts has drastically changed in the past 40 years.  Most of today's performers are heavily reliant on theatrics... so they travel with their own stages and massive rigging so they can distract audiences with light shows/hydraulic lifts/scenery changes/fire and special effects etc.  Such performances are best seen at night - or in a darkened venue.  Timberwolf wasn't really built for that - it was built for static performers and bands.  Demands of artists play a role as well - and KI simply isn't in the business to cater to most of today's intricate tech-riders themselves.

Spirit Song is a low-risk, successful event that has proven to be a large draw for decades. The performers are more traditional "static" performers that don't rely heavily on theatrics or complex tech-riders.  Its a "festival", so it is an admissions draw to the park for an entire weekend.  Because of the nature of the concerts, and the fact that it is at a family-oriented theme park - its a huge draw for churches and youth groups across the Midwest.  A great portion of ticket sales are to large groups that are maintained, and return, year after year.  There's a built-in base of buyers that help guarantee that it's a success.  Now, I am not privy to what type of a contract SS's promoter may have with KI... but I'd guess its a simple 4-wall, where they are essentially just renting the venue and KI only retains the profits from park admissions and concessions.  

It is my opinion that the reason Timberwolf still exists is literally because of Spirit Song.  The event is obviously a large enough draw that the park continues to see its merit (As recent as 2020 - which was cancelled due to Covid.)  And as long as Kings Island deems the facility's use for Spirit Song as a viable use of the "real estate", then Timberwolf will continue.  Also, as long as SS's promoter deems the facility adequate, then KI will likely just "maintain" it rather than heavily re-investing.

If the park deems the land's use better suited for something that can be better marketed, or produce a larger return on investment, then it will be removed.  If they are faced with a costly renovation or remodel (in order to maintain some sort of standard for future use) then they'll run the metrics to find out what the better monetary use is.  As of now, its costing them little to nothing to just sit there... and its tucked away in a spot that isn't really prime midway real-estate.

I do not think the land clearing seen this season is reflective of anything related to a removal of Timberwolf - I think its just a simple clearing of foliage overgrowth.

 

 

Great write-up/explanation of how things work!

(in bold) I think the only exception to the "static" performers at Spritsong would be Skillet (and maybe Red) as they use (or at least used to use) pyrotechnics. And some groups do have other cool effects such as For King and Country's

Spoiler

white scrim background that drops partway through their opening song.

 

[Rivertown Rider]

I do think putting temporary staging in the parking lot similar to how Cedar Point does their concerts would be the answer. 

I would love to see Action Zone spruced up as it still has a lot of the latter day Paramount vibe in some parts. 

[PilotDude]

11 hours ago, Oldschool75 said:

They don’t make much off SS.


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Some people with inside knowledge have said SS is a loss leader and only exists as it fits with managements personal and political beliefs.  If someone was bored enough, you could always go look up political donations to the GOP politicians who have spoke at the event and similar in the past. Or the fact the park has hosted things such as Sean Hannity's Freedom Concert and when park officials introduced Sean, called him a "dear friend and real leadership for the country". But none of that proves anything, but the land clearing along with previous survey markers in the area does make you wonder now doesn't it?

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

1 hour ago, PilotDude said:

 but the land clearing along with previous survey markers in the area does make you wonder now doesn't it?

Those survey markings are for a waterline project that starts next year and ends in 2026 I believe and it's a Warren county thing not just KI. 

[BeeastFarmer]

I still find it humorous that people think this is land clearing.

[IndyGuy4KI]

30 minutes ago, BeeastFarmer said:

I still find it humorous that people think this is land clearing.

Some people make mountains out of mole hills with land clearing at KI.