Top Thrill Dragster Incident

[jsus]

Just now, Tr0y said:

Why not? Trains are expensive, and there isn’t anything wrong with the ones they currently have?

 

 

There isn’t?  This whole thread began after one shedded a hefty chunk of steel and projected it at a guest waiting in the queue…

Further, the trains are >20 years old and potentially from a different manufacturer than the one working on this project.  Plus, technology and train design has advanced over that time. 

[SonofBaconator]

When GCI redid Ghostrider, they used their own trains

When RMC converts coasters, they use their own trains

I’m sure Zamperla is going to use their own trains for their conversion

[Tr0y]

47 minutes ago, jsus said:

There isn’t?  This whole thread began after one shedded a hefty chunk of steel and projected it at a guest waiting in the queue…

Further, the trains are >20 years old and potentially from a different manufacturer than the one working on this project.  Plus, technology and train design has advanced over that time. 

Yeah I understand a piece of metal coming off the train and causing an injury is bad. However that is more of a maintenance issue than manufacture issue. I agree if another manufacture is involved other than Intamin for this project then it will receive new trains. I can’t picture the park spending more capital on trains that will work, unless they cannot be altered for LSM.

[jsus]

16 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

Yeah I understand a piece of metal coming off the train and causing an injury is bad. However that is more of a maintenance issue than manufacture issue. I agree if another manufacture is involved other than Intamin for this project then it will receive new trains. I can’t picture the park spending more capital on trains that will work, unless they cannot be altered for LSM.

Damage to the trains is, by definition, something wrong with them.  As is their connection to the catalyst for the extreme makeover, roller coaster edition.

Further, the complexity of the off season maintenance led CP to get INTAMIN to agree to a limited overhaul program for 2020-21, which may have factored into the tragic incident.

They would also need to be modified to support the new launch.  By the time you do that and modify them enough that guests don’t say, hey wait, that’s Dragster trains, are you better off investing in new modem trains, given the intended lifespan of the new-ish ride?

How does the complexity (in terms of maintenance) of modern INTAMIN, Zamperla, even B&M trains compare to TTD 1.0’s trains?

[Tr0y]

Just now, jsus said:

Damage to the trains is, by definition, something wrong with them. 

Further, the complexity of the off season maintenance led CP to get INTAMIN to agree to a limited overhaul program for 2020-21, which may have factored into the tragic incident.

They would also need to be modified to support the new launch  

How does the complexity (in terms of maintenance) of modern INTAMIN, Zamperla, even B&M trains compare to TTD 1.0’s trains?

Damage to a train, only one was involved.

“Limited” overhaul program, what was apart of the agreement to be overhauled?

Correct who knows if they can even be modified for LSM launch.

As far as complexity, the trains share a lot of similarities and I’m assuming parts with Millennial Force. It makes more sense dollar wise to have have two coasters share the same parts.

[jsus]

11 hours ago, Tr0y said:

Damage to a train, only one was involved.

“Limited” overhaul program, what was apart of the agreement to be overhauled?

Correct who knows if they can even be modified for LSM launch.

As far as complexity, the trains share a lot of similarities and I’m assuming parts with Millennial Force. It makes more sense dollar wise to have have two coasters share the same parts.

The train involved in the incident was the only one that got bad enough to break loose but all trains had been cycled that day (1 got pulled off for the day after morning inspections, each day, generally rotating) and all showed signs of impact damage.

Also keep in mind that lighter trains, if available from the unspecified manufacturer, would require less energy to launch, which means fewer LSMs needed, down sized electrical shed and power bill, etc.  Over the long term, that further erodes any cost benefit of reusing the existing trains.

Millennial Force, you say?  I can't even....  come up with a good response to that.

As for Millennium Force, if anything, shared components means that the TTD 1.0 cars now become spare parts for MF.

[Tr0y]

1 hour ago, jsus said:

The train involved in the incident was the only one that got bad enough to break loose but all trains had been cycled that day (1 got pulled off for the day, each day, generally rotating) and all showed signs of impact damage.

Also keep in mind that lighter trains, if available from the unspecified manufacturer, would require less energy to launch, which means fewer LSMs needed, down sized electrical shed and power bill, etc.  Over the long term, that further erodes any cost benefit of reusing the existing trains.

Millennial Force, you say?  I can't even....  come up with a good response to that.

I think you’re confused with the track. Several horizontal beams within the track showed signs of impact damage from the bracket that sheered off the affected train. 

It’s not the trains that is the issue. It’s the stress imposed on the trains from the hydraulic cable launch, that is the issue. The swing launch (reason for the new footer placement looking like there will more than likely be a spike) is so the trains can more gradually be brought up to 120mph vs doing it in 4 seconds with the hydraulic cable launch. Plus LSM launch system itself has less moving parts in general.

And yes I can almost guarantee the Millennial Force trains share a lot of parts with TTD trains. That way the park can have just one spare part vs two different parts that can be used for either coaster. Here is a photo I got after the TTD accident while standing in line for Millennium Force. Park maintenance was replacing all of the metal brackets on one of the Millennium Force trains. Nine days after the accident.

[DJSkyFoxx]

15 hours ago, PKIDelirium said:

They're just sitting on their wheels, not even in the usual frames. They had previously been back by a maintenance shop during Winter Chill Out, I HIGHLY doubt those are getting used again. Maybe they had to be brought out for inspection as part of the lawsuit.

I was honestly just thinking the very same thing in regards to the trains just sitting on the ground on their wheels without the proper support crates. 

 

[Orion742]

14 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

When GCI redid Ghostrider, they used their own trains

When RMC converts coasters, they use their own trains

I’m sure Zamperla is going to use their own trains for their conversion

I wonder if the trains back on site will be used for some sort of theming for the new ride. The theme could be something like Dragsters Revenge. We’ll have to find out on August 1st!

Edited July 21, 2023 by Orion742
Auto correct

[jsus]

52 minutes ago, Orion742 said:

I wonder if the trains back on site will be used for some sort of theming for the new ride. The theme could be something like Dragsters Revenge. We’ll have to find out on August 1st!

They're not really back on-site unless they ever left Cedar Point property.  Instead, they've just been moved around for inspection and storage so far, if not cannibalization for parts.

[TheBeast54]

Is there any way we could have a watch party for the TTD 2.0 announcement on the KIC forums? Not quite sure, just a suggestion. 

[PKIDelirium]

18 hours ago, DJSkyFoxx said:

I was honestly just thinking the very same thing in regards to the trains just sitting on the ground on their wheels without the proper support crates. 

 

The last time I saw a coaster train on the pavement like that without the transport frame was the third X-Flight train in Geauga’s parking lot during the relocation, that train was used for spare parts and never ran again.

It’s possible a third-party inspection of the trains has been requested as part of the lawsuit, so the vehicles were brought out to a more accessible location.

[IBEW_Sparky]

On 7/20/2023 at 4:24 PM, Tr0y said:

Dragsters trains back at CP, gated off next to Bluestreak.

photo cred: CP uncensored FB group.

This is why fate will never allow me to win a Powerball.... because Im one of those goofballs who would pay BIG coin for one of those lead cars just to have chillin' in my game room.

[IndyGuy4KI]

20 hours ago, TheBeast54 said:

Is there any way we could have a watch party for the TTD 2.0 announcement on the KIC forums? Not quite sure, just a suggestion. 

Aren't we doing that in this thread? 

[TheBeast54]

New fences have been added with teasers for the announcement.

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by TheBeast54
Fixed images again

[SonofBaconator]

I wonder if the blue, gray, and white are the train colors.

[Tr0y]

I’m very interested in seeing who the manufacturer is doing the modifications.

Intamin built the ride, they also likes to use swing launch spikes in a-lot of its newer LSM coaster layouts. Wether or not the Dragster trains can be used, is still up for debate. I will say the Dragster trains did use the two fin layout with the magnetic braking on TTD. So maybe they can be reused and that’s why we see double LSM fins with the new modified track on site. Intamin has seen a resurgence in the states with Busch Gardens and Universal. However they’re relationship with Cedar Fair is bad. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Top_Thrill_Dragster_train.jpg

Zamperla probably most people’s choice. Upped their game in the coaster department. They also debuted new Lightning trains capable of speeds over 100mph. They are currently modified a Intamin hydraulic cable Launch coaster which is what Top Thrill Dragster is. Zamperla however doesn’t currently have a LSM that has been built. So going with Zamperla would be a bit of a gamble for Cedar Fair, not a gamble Cedar Fair hasn’t taken before. Example: (Modial WindSeeker)
https://screamscape.com/html/cedar_point.htm#Dragster

Zierer this one probably not on anyone’s radar and to me has the potential to a dark horse. Given that the style of track, supports, square footers, and the double LSM fin configuration they use on their LSM launch coasters closely resemble what is currently seen with the new supports, footers and track that is currently at Cedar Point’s TTD. Also they do have coasters that use the same double loading / unloading style platforms with some of their coasters. 

 

[Kenban]

5 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

double LSM fin configuration they use on their LSM launch coasters closely resemble what is currently seen

 

Basically no one builds their own LSM launches.  This fin configuration largely does not narrow it down much.  There are two primary LSM providers.  InDriveTec who uses a single row, and InTraSys which uses two rows.  The two rows means it’s likely InTraSys.

 

Almost every company except for Intamin uses InTraSys.  Intamin exclusively uses InDriveTec.  So really the only thing two rows gives us is it’s likely not Intamin.

[jsus]

47 minutes ago, Kenban said:

Basically no one builds their own LSM launches.  This fin configuration largely does not narrow it down much.  There are two primary LSM providers.  InDriveTec who uses a single row, and InTraSys which uses two rows.  The two rows means it’s likely InTraSys.

 

Almost every company except for Intamin uses InTraSys.  Intamin exclusively uses InDriveTec.  So really the only thing two rows gives us is it’s likely not Intamin.

Have you seen something that I haven't?  All the track I've seen arriving far - brake and launch - looks just like it did back in 2003, except in white.  Brake track is the same 2 row configuration needed to bleed off that ~120 mph coming down from the top hat, so that doesn't tell us anything.  Keep in mind that other INTAMIN LSM coasters may only have a single row of brake fins, such as Maverick, but the speeds involved in TTD change matters.

The LSMs are not yet mounted to the launch track and there's nothing that clearly screams 1 vs. 2 row configuration there, either.  Can't really make any assumptions about an LSM configuration based on that.  So, you can't conclusively say that just because InDriveTec has historically only used a single row of LSMs, doesn't mean they would never double up to provide a more powerful launch to match the upgraded braking performance expected of this ride.  Plus, is there any reason Indrivetec couldn't offset the LSMs onto one of the two brake fin channels?

There's nothing that actually seems to tell us conclusively that this is an LSM conversion, much less the configuration or who might be behind it.

All of this is to say that the LSM launch is not official yet (though it's hard to conceive of an alternative as the hydraulic launch is surely history), the track we've seen so far just matches the original track, the brake fin configuration resembles the original configuration, and we're no closer to finding out who is behind the ride (both the engineers behind the project and the "presumed" LSM launch), except that time is ticking and we're getting closer to the (hopefully thorough) announcement on the 1st.

https://twitter.com/JayTaylor777/status/1678197958301437953/photo/1

[Tr0y]

What is interesting is all the Hydraulic launch coasters got lumped into the LSM launch coaster category on Intamin’s Website. Even if they still have their Hydraulic launch system. 
https://www.intamin.com/product/lsm-launch-coaster/

[Kenban]

The parks official announcement is the 1st so I have marked this as spoilers.  It was found by someone on Reddit.

Spoiler

Zamperla has posted a webpage about the ride.  So it’s confirmed, it’s Zamperla.

https://www.zamperla.com/top-thrill-2/

The spike is 420 ft tall.  Bigger than I actually expected.  Triple launch, forward at 74, backward at 101, and third launch to propel you over the top at 120 mph.

The website lists the name as Top Thrill 2, not sure if that’s a project name, placeholder, or the real name.  It just does not sound like the real name to me at least.

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Kenban
Poor wording

[disco2000]

Link didn't open for me.  120mph over the top hat seems a little extreme LOL

[Kenban]

9 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

Link didn't open for me.  120mph over the top hat seems a little extreme LOL

I would keep trying from what I can tell the website and that webpage is still up.  I just think it’s getting hugged to death by a large group of enthusiasts.  All I mean is the launch is 120 MPH, the same as the original.

[jsus]

11 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

Link didn't open for me.  120mph over the top hat seems a little extreme LOL

It loads, it's just incredibly slow.  As you can imagine, the server is under heavy load right now.

Also, obviously it's a 120 mph launch, not clearing the top hat.  120 mph over the top hat would have you coming down at about 240 mph which would destroy the trains and passengers.

[jsus]

YouTube video embeds!  Did they actually fabricate new track nearly identical to the old?  (Edit: andddd they're gone)

Spoiler

https://web.archive.org/web/20230730151458/youtube.com/watch?v=-1vxI-I05H8

https://web.archive.org/web/20230730151452/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB0_HA29wjI

https://web.archive.org/web/20230730151452/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZdMtPCbF7k

Archived here from https://www.zamperla.com/top-thrill-2/

https://web.archive.org/web/20230730151056/zamperla.com/top-thrill-2/

Spoiler

ZAMPERLA PARTNERS WITH Cedar Point
ON THE WORLD’S TALLEST AND FASTEST
TRIPLE-LAUNCH ROLLER COASTER.

 

Click to accept marketing cookies and enable this content

 

 

Zamperla partners with Cedar Point on Top Thrill 2, the world’s tallest and fastest triple-launch roller coaster.
Our Roller Coaster Business Unit engineered and designed a new ride experience.
It combines the ride’s original and iconic top hat with a new 128 meter (420 ft) spike.

 

RE-IMAGINING THE GUEST EXPERIENCE

 

Top Thrill 2 is the world’s first reimagined strata coaster and the fastest and tallest LSM triple-launch coaster.

 

Thanks to the all-new linear synchronous motor (LSM) launch system, riders will experience three unique launches:

• A forward launch at a speed of 119 km/h (74 mph), which leads into a new crowd favorite – the rollback
• A second backward launch reaching a speed of 163 km/h (101 mph), climbing at a 90-degree angle on the new, 128 meter (420 foot)-tall vertical spike.
• A third launch that clocks in at the ride’s top speed of 193 km/h (120 mph) and speeds over the 128 meter (420 foot) top hat before diving into a 270-degree spiral leading to the finish line.

 

 

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FAST-SWITCH

 

The fast switch allows a lower dispatch time, and, therefore, a higher capacity.

 

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THE LIGHTNING TRAIN AND ITS CUTTING-EDGE RACING PERFORMANCE

 

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Innovative train design

 

New Restraint and Seat: The Lightning features open seating that keeps riders safe with a comfortable, redundant lap bar. We created a vehicle that was ergonomic and offered open seating.

 

Capacity: The train’s open design allows for a higher real hourly capacity. Guests can enter and exit the train much faster than the competition.

 

Re-Imagined Car Body: The entire chassis is aluminum-milled. This not only allows the vehicle to weigh less. It dramatically reduces the amount of NDT (Non-Destructive Testing) required every off-season. This minimizes the cost of ownership when compared to traditional roller coaster vehicles.

 

• 
• 
• 

Click to accept marketing cookies and enable this content

 

 

Meet any Capacity: The Lightning train system is our modular thrill platform and we will utilize the number of vehicles so our proposal meets your budgetary and capacity needs.

 

 

Durable Seats: We re-examined every part of the ride to increase ease of maintenance. One dramatic improvement is in the seat padding application. Our design allows for sections of padding to be replaced in a matter of minutes and divides the seats into several sections, lowering the annual replacement costs.

 

 

 

Materials for a racing performance

 

Using part of the old ride’s original track while re-designing the experience required years of research and design from Zamperla’s engineers. The most important attribute of the Top Thrill 2 Lightning train is the weight: thanks to the aluminum-milled chassis and the carbon-fiber bodywork, it weighs less than almost any other train of this type on the market.

 

The wheels are also a unique project component. They are sized to withstand the high speeds of the record-breaking experience and use a polyurethane compound that can stand up to the heat created from a high speed acceleration.

 

It is a train designed not just to beat records- but to smash them!

 

Click to accept marketing cookies and enable this content

 

 

TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP

 

Because we own and operate Luna Park in Coney Island and Luna Farm in Bologna, we know well how maintenance costs impact operations. That is why we focused on the cost of ownership, working to minimize the amount of time, labor and money required to maintain our next generation of roller coasters.

 

 

The Lightning chassis is one milled piece- so there are no welds. This feature is a game changer for maintenance and NDT costs: clients spend less time and money taking care of their ride on an annual basis than both our traditional coasters and those from our competitors.

 

Another key feature considered is the seat foam: we designed it in several pieces so that the owner can change out in a matter of minutes, instead of taking days to get the seat replaced and re-foamed by a third party.

 

The Lightning train was engineered with both parks and riders in mind and it is ready to become the basis for our next generation of roller coasters.

 

• 
• 
• 

 

 

ROLLER COASTER BUSINESS UNIT INVESTMENTS AND INNOVATION

 

 

Zamperla features a ride catalog of more than 90 rides and decades of experience engineering rides of all types worldwide. Some of them have become classics in amusement parks around the world. Over the past decade we have invested heavily in both team and technology: we are proud to have one of the largest roller coaster engineering groups in the attractions industry.

 

Our Roller Coaster Business Unit has the in-house capability to design everything: from our famous Family Coaster to record-breaking new concepts like the Double Heart, or ambitious custom projects like the Top Thrill 2!

 

 

ABOUT THE RIDE

 

Top Thrill 2 Lightning Launch

 

• Total Track Length: 1043 meters (3422 feet)
• Maximum height: 128 meters (420 feet)
• Number of Trains: 3
• Vehicles per-Train: 5
• Passengers per-Train: 20
• Height Restriction: 120 cm (48 in) minimum

 

 

THE STORY OF A LONG RELATIONSHIP WITH Cedar Fair

 

Zamperla’s relationship with Cedar Fair, the parent company of Cedar Point, mirrors the growth the Italian company has seen in the past three decades. The firm started as a manufacturer of kiddie rides and grew so it could deliver over 90 different types of amusement rides. During the early 1990’s Zamperla opened its first park model Crazy Bus at Knott’s Berry Farm. Cedar Fair turned to the company to provide entire children’s areas themed to the Peanuts® IP. Soon the company was providing 5-8 attractions to one park at a time across the Cedar Fair chain.

 

The company has purchased several Family and Powered Coasters over the years from Zamperla but took larger steps with Pony Express at Knott’s Berry Farm and Wild Mouse at Cedar Point. This 2023 Twister Freeform coaster was the Italian firm’s biggest coaster project at Cedar Fair and the centerpiece of the new boardwalk area of the park.

 

As Zamperla grew into larger rides like the Disk’O, Cedar Fair again chose the Italian manufacturer. For instance, Cedar Fair selected the Skater to anchor its award-winning children’s area at Kings Island. More recently, they chose Zamperla for 4 large, highly-themed attractions at their multi-million dollar expansion of the Aeronautica area at Carowinds.

 

Cedar Fair knew about Zamperla’s recent investments in roller coaster engineering and technology. When they wanted to reimagine Top Thrill Dragster the company they met with the company to see if its recent innovations could help them bring a new experience to Cedar Point’s guests. Together Cedar Fair’s corporate team, their Xperience Design Studio, Cedar Point’s team of experts and Zamperla’s roller coaster business unit worked to create a record-breaking triple launch experience on the shores of Lake Erie.

 

[WoodVengeance]

Spoiler

Top Thrill 2: Electric Boogaloo

 

[jsus]

Interestingly, the crane spotted on-site recently appears to be the same model that previously was used to inspect the top hat.

It has a rated max hoist height of 374 feet, which is insufficient for the imminent vertical construction per the leaked specs...

https://www.liebherr.com/en/usa/products/mobile-and-crawler-cranes/mobile-cranes/liebherr-mobile-cranes/ltm-1300-6.2.html

[disco2000]

Capacity for a triple launch will be horrendous LOL.  It better be a near 100% uptime ride or its overall capacity will be worse than TTD taking into account downtime LOL.

It will be interesting to see public reaction.  The entire Thrill of TTD was the zero to 120mph in 3.9 seconds.  Now it will be like what like 15 seconds LOL.

[jsus]

45 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

Capacity for a triple launch will be horrendous LOL.  It better be a near 100% uptime ride or its overall capacity will be worse than TTD taking into account downtime LOL.

It will be interesting to see public reaction.  The entire Thrill of TTD was the zero to 120mph in 3.9 seconds.  Now it will be like what like 15 seconds LOL.

The 3-launch layout doesn't inherently mean worse capacity than TTD 1.0.  Keep in mind what it will be competing against.

As for the speed of the launch...  Well, this ride will sustain high speeds for longer.  That itself will be a nice addition.  That final launch from ~100-120 mph will mean spending ~5s at over 100 mph, racing past the grand stands (presuming they stay) and the midway.  Sure, TTD 1.0 got you up to speed quickly, but then it quickly bled off speed.  Plus, now there's a guaranteed rollback in every box!  Even a bonus roll-forward!

TTD 1.0 by design could only launch about a train a minute.  It took time for the system to recharge the hydraulic accumulators and presumably to cool down a bit.  That would put max capacity around 1080 riders per hour.  Particularly in later years, for some inexplicable reason, they would wait literal minutes after checking restraints to actually dispatch the trains in the station, for no apparent reason.  Further, the controls system was always hyper finicky between the proximity switches and the brake fins sticking.

It would not be hard to beat TTD 1.0's capacity with a solid state launch system that requires less recharge time between launches, a reliable control system, and retractable brake fins that actually reliable retract and extend when needed.  The retractable brake fins now appear to pivot which should be a step towards more reliable operation there.  The old design required the fin to retract and extend level, following guide channels on both ends, offering ample opportunity for them to bind up.  The control system will be a couple decades newer, hopefully learning from past issues both on TTD 1.0 and elsewhere.

In order to keep the same theoretical hourly capacity, it would need to dispatch 54 trains every hour instead of 60.  If that were the target, that means they'd need to dispatch a train every ~67 seconds, vs. the previous strategy of dispatching two trains, in practice, every...  um, when they get around to it.  But, technically that would have to have been every 2 minutes to dispatch every 60 seconds.

Ultimately, that 67 second dispatch time would mean that at t=0s train 1 rolls out of the station through the curve on the fast switch and proceeds to launch forward.  Train launches forward at the speed referenced above.  Fast switch slides over, locks in place.  Train rolls back down the top hat.  Launches backward, climbs the new tower.  Falls forward, launches a 3rd time, flying through the straightaway in ~5 seconds.  Climb the top hat, clear the block.  At t=67s, train 2 rolls out of the station.  Repeat all day.  The only question is how much recharge time, if any, the system needs to recharge after the back of train 1 clears the prox atop the top hat, and before train 2 can be released from the station.

Further, let's consider that Adena appears ready to begin new vertical construction imminently (leaked media schedules appear to indicate on Tuesday, announcement day).  The only steel at height to be installed is the new vertical tower, the rest is pretty low to the ground and easy to knock out quickly once the final foundation work is done.  It's still the previous summer and they look about ready to have construction finished up before Halloweekends even begins.  That leaves them plenty of time to get the controls/mechanicals in and potentially begin testing to really dial things in before final prep once it warms back up next spring.  We may well see them testing outside park hours before the park closes after Halloweekends 2023.

None of that is to say that it's guaranteed the ride will have a reasonable baseline of reliability come May 2024, but I'm saying there's a chance.  So long as the systems are fairly reliable, there appears plenty of cycle time in there to meet or beat TTD 1.0's THRC.  The only other concern appears to be the system recharge time between cycles.

Now, getting guests seated in the trains, secured, trains locked, and cleared for dispatch?  It'll be awfully surprising if CP ride ops and guests actually pull that off.

[Tr0y]

I was leaning more towards Intamin, but it will be exciting to see what Zamperla has to offer. I hope they nail it!