2022 & 2023 Additions and Improvements Notice

[Oldschool75]

On 10/3/2022 at 4:24 PM, Coasterteam said:

One thing people often miss is how Cedar Fair is starting to really head in the "nostalgia" direction. Could we see a modernization of a former ride come back? New B&M standup? Something like Bavarian Beetle? Some old flats come back?

 

Well there is one freshly available. https://rcdb.com/310.htm 

[DoomPlague]

33 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

I don't know many that put Orion over Millie...and many rank Diamondback over Orion... 

Orion is consistently ranked the bottom North America giga by many polls...

Heck, even the golden ticket ranks Millie #3 and Orion #20 (last place giga).  Not even close...  Where did Diamondback fall, oh #17...ahead of Orion... 

 

 

Ragging on Orion has become a bit of a meme and many enthusiasts will hold on to their disappointment for years, all while Millennium Force is still riding on its fame from 20 years ago. Also, no one really respects the Golden Tickets.

I prefer Diamondback over Orion...but I also prefer Orion to Millennium Force (though its close). Orion may not have the airtime of DB but it consistently has more than Millie.

With that said, Millennium Force was a record breaker and Orion clearly has not overshadowed it. Banshee is a bigger, faster ride than Raptor was but B&M inverts were a dime a dozen by the time it was built. So while I don't know what KI's decision making process is, I do think there is probably truth in the idea that CP relies on its reputation as a park that builds big, great rollercoasters and that that may affect what other CF parks get to build.

[PKIDelirium]

A B&M Surf Coaster could certainly serve as a spiritual namesake successor for King Cobra like the new Zambezi Zinger is doing for WoF.

That brings location into question more, though. Vortex’s location would be best suited for a bold visual statement, like a Dive or Floorless. A new KC would also probably be wanted near the original’s location though, and while Delirium and Banshee rule out using the same location like Zambezi, removing TimberWolf could put it very close.

[SonofBaconator]

4 hours ago, Rifleman said:

The new coaster must NOT render any top tier coaster at Cedar Point unmarketable. KI has a strong local market to keep it fed, CP does not. If the coasters at KI at better than CP, the profitability of the flaghship park is at risk. KI needs GP magnets to keep the locals coming, while CP needs record breakers to get people to travel there from out of state. As a bonus, many of those people who travel will visit KI as well. KI and CP are on the same team, and their rides need to complement eachother. CP needs to draw people in, KI needs to be good enough to keep the people it has, and to warrant a side trip from the CP guest. Different positions on the team, but both part of the starting lineup.

 

I know a lot of people who think that, I myself used to, but I don’t think CF really does that anymore, if at all. People didn’t stop going to Cedar Point because Six Flags Great Adventure got a taller model.
 

Cedar Point likes to add record breaking rides because it draws in business, but more often than not if the ride experience is great, people don’t care as much about the records after a while. Steel Vengeance broke a ton of records when it came out but even though some of those records have been broken, people will still ride it. 

All I’m saying is, I don’t think KI is bogged down by CP when it comes to deciding whether or not to add certain things to their park.

[Kenban]

I have been thinking about this, the percentage of the list which is identical to previous years feels way too high.  While our reading of the document is accurate, I suspect the park is purposely not removing companies after projects are complete.  In essence hiding what is really happening using a bunch of old information.  It’s technically correct since the park has contracts with these companies, just they are not doing anything in the listed time period.

A coaster is still possible, maybe they are reusing the same companies, or it could be Zamperla, they are making the wild mouse for Cedar Point.  I hate to say it, but I think this document might be pretty limited in its usefulness.

[IndyGuy4KI]

7 minutes ago, Kenban said:

I hate to say it, but I think this document might be pretty limited in its usefulness.

Seems quite useful in getting fans talking about it. I am having a hard time believing they added companies in to throw us off. Respectively, KI fans are probably the best detectives when it comes to decoding. Probably better than any other park.

 

[Benjamin22]

Just now, IndyGuy4KI said:

Seems quite useful in getting fans talking about it. I am having a hard time believing they added companies in to throw us off. Respectively, KI fans are probably the best detectives when or comes to decoding out of any other park.

 

Them BGWfans people have us beat. 

[IndyGuy4KI]

Just now, Benjamin22 said:

Them BGWfans people have us beat. 

Yeah, was thinking CF, but you are probably right.

[Coasterteam]

35 minutes ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

Yeah, was thinking CF, but you are probably right.

Swear some of those people have automatic bots to practically check for new park related documents for them

Also don't think the park would purposefully lie on their city documents to annoy some random enthusiasts. 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

I highly doubt we're seeing KI adding companies here to troll enthusiasts who basically make up less than a percent of the park's revenue. The city and county aren't here to play. They aren't going to sign contracts and put them on a notice of commencement unless there is a specific reason. The biggest reason I think we are seeing the start of a coaster project is that SkyHigh Coasters is listed and correct me if I'm wrong, they only do new construction of steel coasters. 

[Coasterteam]

1 hour ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

I highly doubt we're seeing KI adding companies here to troll enthusiasts who basically make up less than a percent of the park's revenue. The city and county aren't here to play. They aren't going to sign contracts and put them on a notice of commencement unless there is a specific reason. The biggest reason I think we are seeing the start of a coaster project is that SkyHigh Coasters is listed and correct me if I'm wrong, they only do new construction of steel coasters. 

Could they be on the list if they're just replacing steel track? Would be interested in seeing some parts of Diamondback get new track put in like the rough patch before the trim brake. 

A lot of people think we could see a Vortex replacement as early as 2024, but I'm more towards 2025/2026 since everything was pushed back a year or two after the pandemic. 

If we are getting something in 2024, we would likely start seeing teasers early into the next season. 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

3 minutes ago, Coasterteam said:

Could they be on the list if they're just replacing steel track? Would be interested in seeing some parts of Diamondback get new track put in like the rough patch before the trim brake. 

That's definitely a possibility but Idk if thats what they do. According to their website, they look like they're more about new construction and all their projects on the website are new coasters being built.

[Benjamin22]

Kinda funny if this does turn out to be a 30 million dollar B&M. Like within the past 10 years including this hypothetical coaster they would have spent like 100 million on new rollercoasters but just around 10 or so million on new flats (This is a guesstimate I have no idea how much the flats cost). I feel like when I look at my day at Kings Island one of the biggest things I wish I could experience would be more high thrill flat rides. Flatrides I feel like provide very unique and memorable experiences at times if I'm being honest. They're a nice change of pace instead of just marathoning roller coasters all day. Now I won't complain about a new rollercoaster and I think it is needed but flats would be just as good imo.

[Kenban]

14 hours ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

I am having a hard time believing they added companies in to throw us off. Respectively, KI fans are probably the best detectives when it comes to decoding. Probably better than any other park.

 

Except that is not what I said.  The problem is not adding companies, its that not a single company was removed between the version from 2019 and the 2022 filling.  I went back and looked at the 2016, 2018, 2019, and 2022 versions and compared them.  You used to see companies drop off the list.  But the 2022 version which we are discussing is quite literally the 2019 list with a few companies added at the end before the "and Bolliger & Mabillard".  Someone opened the old document added a few new companies at the end, added the addresses of the new companies, changed the names from Jeff Gramke to Jared McFadden, and swapped out the property description.

The ONLY new additions are Zamperla, Jack Rouse Architects, Abercrombie & Assoc, Beacon Electric, CaptiveAire, F G Schaefr Co, Gravity Kraft, M&E Roofing, Neyra Paving, Piqua Steel Co (PSC), RSL Commercial Architects.  Except for those the company list is identical to 2019.

Jeff Gramke retired between the last time this document was prepared and now.  My guess is Jared McFadden did not remove companies whose work at the park is complete.  I find it extremely hard to believe not a single company between 2019 and 2022 finished their work at the park.

You can find the documents online at this site for Warren County.  If I set that link correctly it will automatically search for the property ID for Kings Island.  Open the notices labeled 2019-039065 and 2022-030467, feel free to compare them for yourself.

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

4 minutes ago, Kenban said:

Except that is not what I said.  The problem is not adding companies, its that not a single company was removed between the version from 2019 and the 2022 filling.  I went back and looked at the 2016, 2018, 2019, and 2022 versions and compared them.  You used to see companies drop off the list.  But the 2022 version which we are discussing is quite literally the 2019 list with a few companies added at the end before the "and Bolliger & Mabillard".  Someone opened the old document added a few new companies at the end, added the addresses of the new companies, changed the names from Jeff Gramke to Jared McFadden, and swapped out the property description.

The ONLY new additions are Zamperla, Jack Rouse Architects, Abercrombie & Assoc, Beacon Electric, CaptiveAire, F G Schaefr Co, Gravity Kraft, M&E Roofing, Neyra Paving, Piqua Steel Co (PSC), RSL Commercial Architects.  Except for those the company list is identical to 2019.

Jeff Gramke retired between the last time this document was prepared and now.  My guess is Jared McFadden did not remove companies whose work at the park is complete.  I find it extremely hard to believe not a single company between 2019 and 2022 finished their work at the park.

You can find the documents online at this site for Warren County.  If I set that link correctly it will automatically search for the property ID for Kings Island.  Open the notices labeled 2019-039065 and 2022-030467, feel free to compare them for yourself.

I have a hard time believing he would have companies listed on a notice of commencement if they're not going to do any work at the park during the upcoming time frame. Commencement notices have to be accurate. 

[KIBeast]

Cue the Giga bathroom that I predicted when Orion was being speculated about. 

[Old_Bearcat]

Information about NOC's: https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-1311.04 

"Improvements" is a defined term and involves addition and alterations to real property. A mechanic's lien is a security interest in the title to property for the benefit of those who have supplied labor or materials that improve the property.  Maintenance is excluded unless it improves the value of the property (examples would be painting a house or an addition of screen porch or other living areas. replacing a water heater or furnace would not as it merely prevents value from decreasing)

----------------------------

of the previous NOC's (rides, etal will be restaurants or other changes)

2019 - 2019,2020 and 2021 Additions and Modifications to Kings Island Park, i.e. covered work for Orion, demos etal

2018 - 2018,2019 and 2020 Additions and Modifications to Kings Island Park, i.e. covered work for Antique Autos, Demos, etal

2016 - 2016,2017 Additions and Modifications to Kings Island Park i.e. Covered work for Mystic Timbers, etal

The current one definitely refers to 2022 and 2023 Additions and Modifications to Kings Island Park.  Take that you'all for what you will 

[BB1]

23 hours ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

Seems quite useful in getting fans talking about it. I am having a hard time believing they added companies in to throw us off. Respectively, KI fans are probably the best detectives when it comes to decoding. Probably better than any other park.

Please not again we just got off the Orion decoding train I can't go back to tinfoil hat mspaint land again for at least a few years. 

In all seriousness I can easily chalk up the GG and GCI bits to retracking on the woodies that we have currently. I don't see the Titan track coming to Mystic anytime soon but I could see some work being done on the bottom of the first drop or possibly in the return run. (IIRC I think I felt some shuffling in that curve coming back) 

For the other companies, to see CF maybe extend construction times or to maybe add a "surprise" attraction doesn't seem that off for me. Considering that we didn't get anything for 2022, and that we have a very recently vacated plot of land; perhaps it's time that we get an Oktoberfest upgrade and maybe a new version of our Keggers for 23? Possibly using the Zamperla Demolition Derby product to recreate the famed attraction and finally make a true German inspired Oktoberfest section.

That being said, as for the other companies of course I could see the B&M piece being CF's continued maintenance of the coaster collection at the park, but could we see the beginnings of the slow build up to a new coaster in the next few years? For as much as I would hate to say it to see a Dive would be visually impressive, but to have a Wing would be perfect for what the park lacks, which is a solid collection of modern supporting coasters. The old Vortex plot is perfect for both kinds of coasters like I have discussed before ad-nauseum, and I wouldn't be surprised if CF, to cut costs and to allocate funds more conservatively, starts to break up construction into phases. 

[CoastersRZ]

Everyone needs to keep in mind what Cedar Fair has been saying on their quarterly conference calls.  They are going to be slowing down the cadence of major installs at the parks and spacing them farther apart than they had been in the past.  They were hoping to focus on less capital intensive, limited time events, such as the 50th anniversary celebrations, that drive urgency and increased demand and repeat visits.  They still are going to install major rides and coasters, they are just going to be spread farther out.  I would not look for a new major roller coaster at Kings Island in 2023 or even 2024 for that matter.  I could see some new flat rides, something done to Planet Snoopy and/or Boo Blasters and something added at the water park.

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

3 minutes ago, CoastersRZ said:

Everyone needs to keep in mind what Cedar Fair has been saying on their quarterly conference calls.  They are going to be slowing down the cadence of major installs at the parks and spacing them farther apart than they had been in the past.  They were hoping to focus on less capital intensive, limited time events, such as the 50th anniversary celebrations, that drive urgency and increased demand and repeat visits.  They still are going to install major rides and coasters, they are just going to be spread farther out.  I would not look for a new major roller coaster at Kings Island in 2023 or even 2024 for that matter.  I could see some new flat rides, something done to Planet Snoopy and/or Boo Blasters and something added at the water park.

I can agree with that, however keep in mind things can change in a day. Remember we weren't originally going to get Orion in 2020 it was supposed to be CGA's Megabite and then plans changed and we got Orion. I believe I remember Chad saying in a KIC interview that he could know one thing and it could change the very next day. 

30 minutes ago, BB1 said:

That being said, as for the other companies of course I could see the B&M piece being CF's continued maintenance of the coaster collection at the park, but could we see the beginnings of the slow build up to a new coaster in the next few years? For as much as I would hate to say it to see a Dive would be visually impressive, but to have a Wing would be perfect for what the park lacks, which is a solid collection of modern supporting coasters. The old Vortex plot is perfect for both kinds of coasters like I have discussed before ad-nauseum, and I wouldn't be surprised if CF, to cut costs and to allocate funds more conservatively, starts to break up construction into phases. 

While its certainly possible, I don't think they would need to list B&M on a notice of commencement for that unless its a major rebuild like replacing track/support sections. Also, with SkyHigh Coasters being on the list, I don't think this is just for maintenance unless SkyHigh is going to be doing the construction work on it which I doubt. We'll just have to wait and see.  

[CoastersRZ]

Yes, I am not disputing the fact that plans can and do change.  I just think those of you who see this document and think that KI is getting a coaster in 2023 are setting your selves up for disappointment.  Even a new coaster in 2024 for KI I think is a stretch.  There are other areas that KI could use some capital improvements on before they get a new coaster.

That being said, yes, I agree that they will eventually need to fill Vortex`s plot of land with something.  It is a big area at the back of Coney Mall that needs something.  Shake Rattle and Roll just looks weird with a high privacy fence around most of its queue.

[BoddaH1994]

To reiterate, there's a 99.9999% chance that this document means nothing from a guest-facing standpoint.

[Benjamin22]

8 minutes ago, BoddaH1994 said:

To reiterate, there's a 99.9999% chance that this document means nothing from a guest-facing standpoint.

Why is that? 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

8 minutes ago, CoastersRZ said:

Yes, I am not disputing the fact that plans can and do change.  I just think those of you who see this document and think that KI is getting a coaster in 2023 are setting your selves up for disappointment.  Even a new coaster in 2024 for KI I think is a stretch.  There are other areas that KI could use some capital improvements on before they get a new coaster.

That being said, yes, I agree that they will eventually need to fill Vortex`s plot of land with something.  It is a big area at the back of Coney Mall that needs something.  Shake Rattle and Roll just looks weird with a high privacy fence around most of its queue.

Not once did I even think a coaster for 2023 was a possibility. We would've seen signs of it since opening day as well as gotten an announcement in August. This is likely a notice saying construction is going to start in 2023 with a 2024 opening like Orion did in 2019. We'll just have to wait and see and enjoy the rest of this season first. Then have crazy speculation over the off-season and maybe the decoding 2024 thread starts in April. 

[MrSourNinja]

This document has been extremely accurate in the past and will continue to be so. Like others have mentioned, this is an official filing with the county, it isn't going to be messed up.

While a coaster is not guaranteed in 2024, it certainly seems likely unless we are getting a renovation from GCI or B&M. Neither of which seem likely at this moment in time.

[ThrillKingsFitzy]

This is more of an “I hope” and not a “this could happen”, but I would love to see an inverting GCI full Titan track coaster.


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[Oldschool75]

On 10/3/2022 at 10:07 PM, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

That's definitely a possibility but Idk if thats what they do. According to their website, they look like they're more about new construction and all their projects on the website are new coasters being built.

They relocate rides also. 

 

 

On another note, this would be awesome to bring back to the park. 

https://www.zamperla.com/products/tea-cup/

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

5 minutes ago, Oldschool75 said:

One another note, this would be awesome to bring back to the park. 

https://www.zamperla.com/products/tea-cup/

And make them barrels to bring back Der Spinning Keggers 

[disco2000]

Crazier things have happened, but I find it hard to believe that they would have left all those original firms in this document if they do not/did not plan to have contracts with those firms.

With all the firms listed, speculation can run wild on this and if all of this means more than just maintenance work, then we are in for a 2024 treat!

Could erroneously leaving companies in that they do not plan to work with potentially open them up for liens or other liabilities?

[KIghostguy]

The Notice of Commencement for Orion was dated for 2018, 2019, and 2020 additions and modifications to the park. The NoC with Mystic Timbers was for 2016 and 2017. There's one for Tropical Plunge that's dated for 2015 and 2016. This document is for 2022 and 2023 changes to the park. I'm not well-versed in Notices of Commencement, but based on the past ones, it seems like we're looking at work that's starting in 2022 and finishing/opening in 2023.