Fox 19: Plaintiffs land key victory in suit against Kings Island owner over 2020 season passes

[standbyme]

10 minutes ago, super7 said:

 It all books haft just quietly went away…..

I am sure autocorrect is responsible for this sentence…what did you mean to say? (I couldn’t decipher it.)

[IndyGuy4KI]

I think that once they said they would extend the passes into 2021, those that had not visited the park with their pass should have been able to get a refund.  With the condition that they would have to buy a new pass if they wanted one in 2021. 

[disco2000]

The problem is that this would be like the classic bank run situation like what was prominent in "It's a Wonderful Life".  Your money in a bank isn't just sitting there - it is used to give people loans, invest, that sort of thing.  And if everyone tries to cash out their account at the same time, a bank will default as that cash isn't there for every account.  Bank runs usually start when depositors worry the bank might fail. Depositors rush to withdraw money before the bank shuts down; the bank exhausts its cash reserves; and the bank then liquidates assets and calls in loans to find more money. If the bank can't sell enough assets to cover the withdrawals, it may have to close. Banks that do cover the run often end up financially crippled from selling assets cheap to raise money.

CF had already allocated and spent the money and likely wouldn't have had the cash reserve to give back a lot of refunds.  And we can just look at the stock market how it can go up or down just based on one tweet, so I am sure CF predicted that a large percentage of people would have requested a refund and that would have put them in even more financial dire straights.  Like the stock market, people get emotional and make rash decisions that may or may not be in their best interest. 

I know a lot of us in March and April 2020 didn't think the parks would re-open that year.  And yet they did and we got an extra year out of our pass.  Then you would have all the people complaining they got a refund at their October 2019 price in March 2020 and now have to pay July 2020 prices to buy a pass again because they want to go to the park but assumed in March that the park wouldn't open and wanted their money back.

Offering the next year free was their mechanism to weather the storm so that they could stand half a chance of not going bankrupt.

I know people that got refunds despite the no refund policy.  If someone could make a great case why they requested the refund it happened.  Of course they are not going to advertise that.

Probably most of the people wishing they could have got a refund ended up going to the park in 20 and 21.  The few that didn't could then make the case for a refund.

Hindset is always 20/20, and I bet looking back on it, they think they made the best decision in offering the next year free based on how well the parks have performed since.  I think we would be looking at a seriously different park had they offered refunds in March 2020 - I think too many people would have asked for the refund concerned that the park would either not open or would go bankrupt.

[super7]

18 hours ago, standbyme said:

I am sure autocorrect is responsible for this sentence…what did you mean to say? (I couldn’t decipher it.)

Lol.  I’m bad about proofreading.  
 

It could have went away quietly.  

[super7]

On 4/24/2022 at 12:43 PM, disco2000 said:

The problem is that this would be like the classic bank run situation like what was prominent in "It's a Wonderful Life".  Your money in a bank isn't just sitting there - it is used to give people loans, invest, that sort of thing.  And if everyone tries to cash out their account at the same time, a bank will default as that cash isn't there for every account.  Bank runs usually start when depositors worry the bank might fail. Depositors rush to withdraw money before the bank shuts down; the bank exhausts its cash reserves; and the bank then liquidates assets and calls in loans to find more money. If the bank can't sell enough assets to cover the withdrawals, it may have to close. Banks that do cover the run often end up financially crippled from selling assets cheap to raise money.

CF had already allocated and spent the money and likely wouldn't have had the cash reserve to give back a lot of refunds.  And we can just look at the stock market how it can go up or down just based on one tweet, so I am sure CF predicted that a large percentage of people would have requested a refund and that would have put them in even more financial dire straights.  Like the stock market, people get emotional and make rash decisions that may or may not be in their best interest. 

I know a lot of us in March and April 2020 didn't think the parks would re-open that year.  And yet they did and we got an extra year out of our pass.  Then you would have all the people complaining they got a refund at their October 2019 price in March 2020 and now have to pay July 2020 prices to buy a pass again because they want to go to the park but assumed in March that the park wouldn't open and wanted their money back.

Offering the next year free was their mechanism to weather the storm so that they could stand half a chance of not going bankrupt.

I know people that got refunds despite the no refund policy.  If someone could make a great case why they requested the refund it happened.  Of course they are not going to advertise that.

Probably most of the people wishing they could have got a refund ended up going to the park in 20 and 21.  The few that didn't could then make the case for a refund.

Hindset is always 20/20, and I bet looking back on it, they think they made the best decision in offering the next year free based on how well the parks have performed since.  I think we would be looking at a seriously different park had they offered refunds in March 2020 - I think too many people would have asked for the refund concerned that the park would either not open or would go bankrupt.

You are right.   Many people would have wanted refunds in March/April.   That’s the same reason the stock market crashed during those moths.  Uncertainty. 
 

But some parks did open in July and the situation was looking better by then.   Refunds beginning then would have been appropriate. 
 

If a business is failing though it doesn’t give them the ethical right to keep prepayments  IMO.    

[disco2000]

In a bankruptcy proceeding, season pass holders would legally be the last ones to get any money back as all others owed money get first dibs at the money. I still believe CF and the majority of season pass holders came out better than wholesale refunds.

Purchasing something not valid until the next year always carries an inherent risk.

As we saw with the season pass offering this past fall, people purchased in record numbers, so obviously enough people have trust in that that park would open this year and if not then they trusted CF would make them whole.

Those demanding a refund are in the minority.  If they were the majority, then they wouldn't have taken advantage of the fall sale and would have waited until now when the park opened...

[coaster sally]

We need no give Cedar Fair the benefit of the doubt.  They can do no wrong.  SEAS however did give our family a 2000$ plus refund in 2020 however.

[disco2000]

Hmm and wasn't SEAS the best performer last year based on stock valuation?

[coaster sally]

6 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

We need no give Cedar Fair the benefit of the doubt.  They can do no wrong.  SEAS however did give our family a 2000$ plus refund in 2020 however.

We had booked discovery cove and a Florida parks ticket package.  They were still opened but with limited capacity like all other parks.  Emailed them since Iron Gwazi wasn't going to open and they happily refunded us no questions asked.  First of June we are picking up out platinum passes from sea world San Diego and have already booked discovery cove for when we go down for ice breaker and iron gwazi.  I am thankful they took care of us.

[disco2000]

A refund on a package is different than season passes - or did you have passes they refunded too?

[coaster sally]

1 minute ago, disco2000 said:

A refund on a package is different than season passes - or did you have passes they refunded too?

2 platinum passes since my daughter and I were going to bgw for that new coaster that was supposed to open there(which I cannot state the name nor manufacturer)

[BoddaH1994]

More:

https://sanduskyregister.com/news/382867/cedar-fair-denied-court-motion/?fbclid=IwAR1dP5132j1xNsF454Ok8kcq4ydlN04YMlxW7VQzkGV48CZaw17peTsKBQk
 

With how much I used my pass at both KI and CP, I’d feel dirty taking a payout. 

[Oldiesmann]

The case has now found its way to the state supreme court: https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/05/cedar-fair-passholders-at-ohio-supreme-court-hoping-for-refunds-for-delayed-2020-season-capitol-letter.html

[CorkscrewMcPuke]

On 4/21/2022 at 10:24 PM, BoddaH1994 said:

A little unreasonable considering we got 2021 for free. 

You do have to consider that the Delta variant dominated 2021. Those with suppressed immune systems for example would have had theoretically to risk their well being just to take advantage of the opportunity. It's a complex issue.

[Browntggrr]

This is one case I stand behind CF 100%.

All businesses suffered during the pandemic & had to make difficult decisions to try and keep customers and investors both happy and stay in business while not slitting their throats by giving too much away.  It was a tremendously slippery slope.

For CF to extend season passes for an entire year is really going above & beyond what should be expected and any passholder should know that true value.

 

[robintodd]

In a unanimous 7-0 decision the Ohio Supreme Court finds Cedar Point NOT required to issue refunds for pandemic shortened season.

https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/2022/10/cedar-point-not-required-to-issue-refunds-for-pandemic-shortened-season-ohio-supreme-court-rules.html

[BoddaH1994]

I think for this particular instance, the Supreme Court made the right decision. The parks could not open. They didn’t choose not to. 
 

Selfishly, it is most of our best interests for the lawsuit to fail. More cash in FUN’s hands may lead to more and better investment. This would certainly have hindered that. I know that we are the ultimate special interest group, but for most of us, this is a good thing. 

[IndyGuy4KI]

Totally agree. The chain acted in very good faith by extending the pass to another season. The passholder ended up with the better end of the deal at the end of it all.

The court says:

Quote

 

"We conclude that Cedar Fair's delay in opening its parks to season-pass holders does not, by itself, establish a claim for breach of contract or for unjust enrichment," wrote Justice Sharon Kennedy for the court's opinion.

The Supreme Court went onto explain that even if Cedar Fair's amusement parks regularly run from May through October, that doesn't mean that they are contractually bound to open in May 2020.

Per the terms of the Gold Pass, "all operating dates and hours are subject to change without notice. All rides and attractions are subject to closings and cancellations for weather or other conditions."

 

From this article: https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/warren-county/mason/kings-island-customers-not-owed-refunds-for-months-closed-due-to-covid-pandemic-ohio-supreme-court-rules?_amp=true

 

 

[disco2000]

Yep, this should have never got that far.  Would hate to hear how much CF spent on this.

Totally agree, for the overwhelming majority, passholders got a great deal out of this and certainly more than they legally would have been required to do given the Terms and Conditions.

[robintodd]

12 hours ago, disco2000 said:

Yep, this should have never got that far.  Would hate to hear how much CF spent on this.

Totally agree, for the overwhelming majority, passholders got a great deal out of this and certainly more than they legally would have been required to do given the Terms and Conditions.

Agree it should have never got that far.  Clearly what CF did was above and beyond with giving an extra year.  Talking about what CF spent don't forget what the plaintiffs spent.  As I've said before I'm pretty sure CF has attorneys on the payroll.  Either way once again the only real winners are the lawyers.  I've always stated the only way to fix our legal system is having an automatic counter suit against the plaintiffs for 1/2 of what they are asking for from the defendants.  Would stop a lot of fraudulent and pro-bono lawsuits that clog up our system.

[disco2000]

Sign up for your 5 bucks once the lawyers take their share....

 

Dear 2020 Cedar Fair season passholders, 

The United States District Court for the Northern District of Ohio recently certified a class of Cedar Fair 2020 season passholders, to seek refunds on 2020 season passes for park closures during the pandemic. See Walker v. Cedar Fair. L.P, No. 3:20-cv-02176 (N.D. Ohio).

Based on Cedar Fair’s records, we believe you are a class member.

Our law firms were appointed by the Court as class counsel, to represent class members. Later on there will be an official notice process, with more detail about the case. We write now because we are looking for more class members to actively participate in the case, as class representatives.  Serving helps other class members and, if the case is successful, can potentially result in compensation for your service. If you are potentially interested, please complete the brief survey linked here. Because the class includes over 100,000 passholders, we cannot respond to individual emails. Please fill out the survey if you are interested in potentially being a class representative, and we will individually contact those with the potential to serve.

               
Sincerely,

 

Class Counsel 
Jonas Jacobson
Dovel & Luner LLP

Nicole Fiorelli
Dworken & Bernstein LPA 

[johnjniehaus]

All I'm going to say is that Cedar Fair owes me nothing. They were more than generous with giving the free year in 2021. I can see the argument for people who never used the pass should get a refund but anyone who used their pass in 2020 and 2021 and got their money's worth out of it should feel dirty/guilty to try to squeeze the park for any money through class action. 

[Orion-XL200]

I never received this...but even if I did, I'd let it go. They were more than generous to add 2021....while 2020 wasn't the best year in the park, it still was there and fun was still had.

[johnjniehaus]

11 hours ago, Orion-XL200 said:

I never received this...but even if I did, I'd let it go. They were more than generous to add 2021....while 2020 wasn't the best year in the park, it still was there and fun was still had.

I actually loved 2020. Of course offerings were reduced, you had to social distance, and wear masks indoors or whatever but to be honest I thought it was a great season considering you literally couldn't go anywhere or do anything for at least 3-4 months. Orion didn't get that big opening it deserved but I loved having a new coaster to be excited about when the world was falling apart in chaos. And I know others hated that reservation system but I actually really liked the timed que entry for Orion. Sure you couldn't ride it multiple times but at least you never had to wait long to ride it. I personally would like to see that implemented on all new coasters just because it manages the crowd and gives everyone a chance to ride and still enjoy the rest of their day at the park (not just the people paying extra for fastlane)

[super7]

It’s always poor business to keep a customers money when they get nothing for it.   If a customer wants a refund, it should be given as long as the customer is not scamming.  
 

greedy corporations that keep customers money without providing a good or service tend to never get those customers back again.   Foolish short term, profits hurt, long-term profits.

[disco2000]

8 minutes ago, super7 said:

It’s always poor business to keep a customers money when they get nothing for it.   If a customer wants a refund, it should be given as long as the customer is not scamming.  
 

greedy corporations that keep customers money without providing a good or service tend to never get those customers back again.   Foolish short term, profits hurt, long-term profits.

How did the customer not get anything out of it?

Depending on their home park, they got an extra year to almost two years for the price of one year.

KI did open in 2020 and all passholders got 2021 for free - how is that not getting anything out of it?  Sounds like they paid for one year and got almost two years....

The parks had to take revenue for one year and spread it over two.  The still had fixed costs even with a closed park.

Remember that in the 2022 annual report released 2023 Q1, they noted that "In 2022, we sold a record 3.2 million season passes and generated more than $450 million in revenues from our suite of season-pass products, including all-season dining and all-season beverage....Operating costs and expenses for 2022 totaled $1.29 billion"

Based on the most recent Quarterly call, 2024 is poised to set new records as well.

So they have more than made up with new customers any they lost that felt they were not treated fairly by getting more than a year's worth out of their pass.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but I bet looking back on it, they think they made the best decision in offering the next year free based on how well the parks have performed since.  I think we would be looking at a seriously different park had they offered refunds in March 2020 - I think too many people shortsightedly would have asked for the refund concerned that the park would either not open or would go bankrupt.  And then these same people would complain about now having to buy a pass in July 2020 when the park opened and having to pay more than they paid and was refunded 3 months prior due to the pricing of passes being cheaper in the fall when they originally purchased.

We can knock the chain on many things, but most feel CF was more than fair in how they handled this extreme situation.