Something is Surfacing 9-19-2024

[KIBeast]

20 hours ago, Orion742 said:

 I do believe this makes 2026 our year with Cedar Point getting back to back major coasters and the parks not liking to do major additions in the same year. I think the park is saving The Vortex plot for something special and I can’t wait to see what it is in the future. I do think the park is going to have to get very creative with our next coaster. Should be very interesting.

Actually, including the short lived TT2 opening, Cedar Point installed back to back to back coasters; i.e. Wild Mouse, TT2, and now Siren's Curse.

I also cannot wait to see what is decided for The Vortex plot of land. I would not be mad to receive something similar to Alpen Fury at Canada's Wonderland.

[disco2000]

What is a Til coaster 

[DispatchMaster]

2 hours ago, johnjniehaus said:

personal attacks such as labeling people as belonging to a "weird community"

I include myself in the weird community of enthusiasts. But I'm self-aware enough to know that the way we tend to reflexively think about things (why didn't Park A get New Ride X, they Park A deserves it more!") doesn't apply to the real world of park management.

2 hours ago, Tr0y said:

...the disastrous investment in TT2...

First of all, calling TT2 a "disaster" is an emotional response.

But more importantly, who considers the investment to be "disastrous"? Just because an enthusiast thinks it's a disaster doesn't mean the folks in charge do. Now, that's not to say the ride not opening this year is anything other than bad, but coasters are a several-decade investment, so it's a bit early to label the investment a disaster.

There were a few rides whose debuts were pushed from 2024 to 2025. Are those also "disastrous" outcomes? If those aren't "disasters" I don't see how TT2 is, considering the net effect is the same - a ride is opening a year later than originally scheduled.

2 hours ago, Tr0y said:

Maybe they did not meet their expectations for hotel reservations

Even if it were true that hotel reservations were down this year, does it make sense to spend several million dollars because a few rooms went unused during the season? It seems like it would make far more sense to simply adjust room rates, something they already do to control demand. In fact, their ability to dynamically price lodging means that if there unused lodging capacity, it's probably more or less by design.

[cdubbs727]

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

But more importantly, who considers the investment to be "disastrous"?

I agree with most of what you have to say. However, I think there's a lot of people who consider this disastrous, even if it's a bit of hyperbole. 

TT2 was supposed to be a solution not only to a safety hazard but also to a PR disaster; when your faulty ride sends someone to the hospital, that's a PR emergency. And so TT2 was supposed to be some sort of vindication. Had it been up and down throughout the season, people could say "well, TTD was a maintenance nightmare, but became more reliable over time." When your ride that has been designed to garner some good PR and bring in season pass holders only operates for less than a week, that's a PR disaster.

Yes, in the long term, if they can bring TT2 up to working order, it's probably not a long-term fiasco. And the enthusiast community, by large, probably knows this. 

But the GP isn't as kind. And several of the folks who live around here (I'm in the Detroit area) have laughed quite a bit about CP not being able to keep its new ride open for a week. Couple that with the nightmare stories people come back with about lengthy lines, extended downtime for other rides, and what seems to be a general trashiness at the park in terms of staffing, upkeep and clientele, and I think it just adds to an overall disaster. 

So I think it makes sense that CP probably rushed this ride over to distract attention from giant top hat and spike that haven't worked and get a bit of good PR. Maybe TT2 opens in May and this rides a hit and CP figures out its operations; I hope so. But it just proves out to me why I'm so thankful Kings Island's recent updates have been about improving the park experience, not stuffing in more thrill rides. 

[johnjniehaus]

43 minutes ago, cdubbs727 said:

I agree with most of what you have to say. However, I think there's a lot of people who consider this disastrous, even if it's a bit of hyperbole. 

TT2 was supposed to be a solution not only to a safety hazard but also to a PR disaster; when your faulty ride sends someone to the hospital, that's a PR emergency. And so TT2 was supposed to be some sort of vindication. Had it been up and down throughout the season, people could say "well, TTD was a maintenance nightmare, but became more reliable over time." When your ride that has been designed to garner some good PR and bring in season pass holders only operates for less than a week, that's a PR disaster.

Yes, in the long term, if they can bring TT2 up to working order, it's probably not a long-term fiasco. And the enthusiast community, by large, probably knows this. 

But the GP isn't as kind. And several of the folks who live around here (I'm in the Detroit area) have laughed quite a bit about CP not being able to keep its new ride open for a week. Couple that with the nightmare stories people come back with about lengthy lines, extended downtime for other rides, and what seems to be a general trashiness at the park in terms of staffing, upkeep and clientele, and I think it just adds to an overall disaster. 

So I think it makes sense that CP probably rushed this ride over to distract attention from giant top hat and spike that haven't worked and get a bit of good PR. Maybe TT2 opens in May and this rides a hit and CP figures out its operations; I hope so. But it just proves out to me why I'm so thankful Kings Island's recent updates have been about improving the park experience, not stuffing in more thrill rides. 

Great points. It's interesting what the GP thinks about things.. sometimes they don't care and only the enthusiasts make a big deal about something but then other times the GP can be the harshest critic. 

[Tr0y]

2 hours ago, DispatchMaster said:

Even if it were true that hotel reservations were down this year, does it make sense to spend several million dollars because a few rooms went unused during the season? It seems like it would make far more sense to simply adjust room rates, something they already do to control demand. In fact, their ability to dynamically price lodging means that if there unused lodging capacity, it's probably more or less by design.

Dynamic pricing isn't what draws people to stay the night in Sandusky. Dynamic pricing is strictly to compete with the neighboring hotels. What draws people to Sandusky is Cedar Point, and its lineup of world class, record breaking coasters. Even with Dynamic pricing, CP still charges a premium to stay in one of its hotels.

[SmartCat7162]

2 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

Dynamic pricing isn't what draws people to stay the night in Sandusky. Dynamic pricing is strictly to compete with the neighboring hotels. What draws people to Sandusky is Cedar Point, and its lineup of world class, record breaking coasters. Even with Dynamic pricing, CP still charges a premium to stay in one of its hotels.

Very true when I made a trip to Cedar Point this year I had free tickets so it did not make sense to stay at the hotel since it is so expensive and the real perk is buying a ticket bundle with the hotel stay and getting ERT. If I had been to Cedar Point before my trip this year I probably would have weighted to go till next year to ride TT2 since it is such a far drive from Cincy. But since it was my first time ever going I took the opportunity to go.

[SonofBaconator]

If it’s still possible, I think it should be repainted purple. There are already 5 coasters with red track at that park.

[WoodVengeance]

55 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

If it’s still possible, I think it should be repainted purple. There are already 5 coasters with red track at that park.

I was thinking this too for whenever Cedar Point got their next coaster. Though it would be funny, considering this coaster is themed to a screaming mythical creature, just like another certain coaster that resides in the same state that also has a purple paint scheme.

[robintodd]

21 hours ago, Tr0y said:

Maybe they did not meet their expectations for hotel reservations at CP

They met their expectations.  I often look for rooms at random times to see how busy Breakers is and I can tell you it was busier this year than ever.  That being said, I do expect that several reservations were cancelled/changed once it was announced that TT2 would not be opening this year.

Another thing to remember is that the sports complex (sports force parks) brings in a ton of people to Sandusky as well.  

[SonofBaconator]

12 hours ago, WoodVengeance said:

I was thinking this too for whenever Cedar Point got their next coaster. Though it would be funny, considering this coaster is themed to a screaming mythical creature, just like another certain coaster that resides in the same state that also has a purple paint scheme.

That was kind of the intent behind the color choice, that, and the former wildcat coaster that sat in that same spot had the same colored track.

[DJSkyFoxx]

On 9/20/2024 at 2:23 PM, cdubbs727 said:

I agree with most of what you have to say. However, I think there's a lot of people who consider this disastrous, even if it's a bit of hyperbole. 

TT2 was supposed to be a solution not only to a safety hazard but also to a PR disaster; when your faulty ride sends someone to the hospital, that's a PR emergency. And so TT2 was supposed to be some sort of vindication. Had it been up and down throughout the season, people could say "well, TTD was a maintenance nightmare, but became more reliable over time." When your ride that has been designed to garner some good PR and bring in season pass holders only operates for less than a week, that's a PR disaster.

Yes, in the long term, if they can bring TT2 up to working order, it's probably not a long-term fiasco. And the enthusiast community, by large, probably knows this. 

But the GP isn't as kind. And several of the folks who live around here (I'm in the Detroit area) have laughed quite a bit about CP not being able to keep its new ride open for a week. Couple that with the nightmare stories people come back with about lengthy lines, extended downtime for other rides, and what seems to be a general trashiness at the park in terms of staffing, upkeep and clientele, and I think it just adds to an overall disaster. 

So I think it makes sense that CP probably rushed this ride over to distract attention from giant top hat and spike that haven't worked and get a bit of good PR. Maybe TT2 opens in May and this rides a hit and CP figures out its operations; I hope so. But it just proves out to me why I'm so thankful Kings Island's recent updates have been about improving the park experience, not stuffing in more thrill rides. 

The gulls think its a fine investment! What a heck of a perch they added for them this season!

[PKIDelirium]

Sure, it's a stock model originally intended for another park, but it looks like a good fit for that plot of land with the bleachers where Wildcat was, and the empty plot behind that where some of the old dorms were demolished. Apparently going to be re-routing Perimeter Road closer to the marina to open up that property.

Honestly it seems like a win for the park. They're basically getting a "free" major coaster and filling in that awkward plot of land. The color scheme isn't the best, with the theme some kind of blue scheme would fit best, but I doubt they'd want to repaint a newly made ride.

I wouldn't want it to replace Vortex, that plot deserves something custom-built and using the terrain and midway proximity. Flattening it would lead to a strange looking area, sort of like how Orion's station and queue area look somewhat strange because of that land having previously been flattened to fit Firehawk.

[KIBeast]

This coaster is not being built as some sort of appeasement for TT2. From what I understand, the hotels have been full and the park has been busy despite it being closed. Does anyone seriously think Cedar Point thought oh no! A few people on an online message board are upset about TT2, we better pull a new coaster out our you know where to make them happy!

[KIghostguy]

1 hour ago, KIBeast said:

This coaster is not being built as some sort of appeasement for TT2. From what I understand, the hotels have been full and the park has been busy despite it being closed. Does anyone seriously think Cedar Point thought oh no! A few people on an online message board are upset about TT2, we better pull a new coaster out our you know where to make them happy!

Out of all the parks in the chain now, and all the years to actually build it…it is opening in 2025 at Cedar Point. There are other parks in the system that also have flat, empty plots of land. It is honestly ridiculous to think this has nothing at all to do with Top Thrill 2.

[Skibum]

On 9/20/2024 at 10:20 PM, SonofBaconator said:

If it’s still possible, I think it should be repainted purple. There are already 5 coasters with red track at that park.

 

From what I understand, some of the track was already onsite in Mexico and was painted red.  Probaby too late to change color schemes.  I could be wrong, though.

[WoodVengeance]

2 hours ago, Skibum said:

 

From what I understand, some of the track was already onsite in Mexico and was painted red.  Probaby too late to change color schemes.  I could be wrong, though.

It was also heavily rumored that Six Flags Mexico was going to theme their tilt coaster to Harley Quinn, as they used her in one of the teasers they released before they were supposed to make their announcement. It would explain why Siren's Curse has a red/gray color scheme if that was originally supposed to be themed to Harley Quinn. Also adding to this, it would also explain why the trains have a green and purple color scheme if those were supposed to represent Joker, who is also heavily tied to Harley Quinn.

[DJSkyFoxx]

10 hours ago, WoodVengeance said:

It was also heavily rumored that Six Flags Mexico was going to theme their tilt coaster to Harley Quinn, as they used her in one of the teasers they released before they were supposed to make their announcement. It would explain why Siren's Curse has a red/gray color scheme if that was originally supposed to be themed to Harley Quinn. Also adding to this, it would also explain why the trains have a green and purple color scheme if those were supposed to represent Joker, who is also heavily tied to Harley Quinn.

Harley Quinn: The Siren Chronicles 

[DispatchMaster]

On 9/20/2024 at 2:23 PM, cdubbs727 said:

TT2 was supposed to be a solution not only to a safety hazard but also to a PR disaster; when your faulty ride sends someone to the hospital, that's a PR emergency.

I don't agree with this at all. If the park were concerned about bad PR, they would have removed TTD completely. Rebuilding the ride is not good PR, and in fact the rebuilding of the ride was cited by Hawes' attorneys, which complicated the case, and gave the plaintiff firmer ground for damages. If anything, rebuilding the ride rather than removing it added insult to literal, life changing injury. I fail to see how that's good PR.

From that point on, keeping the ride closed following the modification is good PR, in that the park is willing to shutter the ride until they are absolutely certain the ride is safe for guests.

On 9/20/2024 at 2:23 PM, cdubbs727 said:

But the GP isn't as kind. And several of the folks who live around here (I'm in the Detroit area) have laughed quite a bit about CP not being able to keep its new ride open for a week.

You're painting with a wide brush, first of all, and making assumptions based on your anecdotal experience. Generally speaking, guests can barely get the names of rides correct most of the time, so I find it hard to believe that there's adequate "word of mouth" to make the ride being SBNO some sort of "disaster". I would bet that poor weather has had more adverse impact on the park in a given season compared to TT2 being down.

And I'll counter your meaningless anecdotal evidence with meaningless anecdotal evidence of my own. Some friends of ours, who haven't been to CP in many years, visited this summer and had an absolutely fantastic time despite TT2's status, and can't wait to come back again.

Again, enthusiasts tend to overestimate how much normal people care about this stuff.

On 9/20/2024 at 3:34 PM, Tr0y said:

Dynamic pricing isn't what draws people...

Yes, it quite literally does. That's the entire point of dynamic pricing - to adjust the supply-demand curve in real time. If demand is weak, prices decrease. If demand is strong, prices increase. This is the most basic, fundamental concept of economics.

Think about it... If the park weren't meeting their hotel revenue target, which option makes more sense as a solution?

• Solution A - Adjust room rates down until demand meets their target. Cost to park: literally nothing. In fact, there would be additional revenue and profit, assuming rates are kept above operating cost (which, at those rates, they are).
• Solution B - Hastily install a new ride and hope demand increases. Cost to park: millions of dollars.

Considering that one of the two solutions earns more revenue, while the other costs millions of dollars, it should be obvious which solution makes the most sense.

[KIBeast]

18 hours ago, KIghostguy said:

Out of all the parks in the chain now, and all the years to actually build it…it is opening in 2025 at Cedar Point. There are other parks in the system that also have flat, empty plots of land. It is honestly ridiculous to think this has nothing at all to do with Top Thrill 2.

And that is purely speculation on your part, with no evidence to back your claim.

[Tr0y]

16 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

Yes, it quite literally does. That's the entire point of dynamic pricing - to adjust the supply-demand curve in real time. If demand is weak, prices decrease. If demand is strong, prices increase. This is the most basic, fundamental concept of economics.

Think about it... If the park weren't meeting their hotel revenue target, which option makes more sense as a solution?

• Solution A - Adjust room rates down until demand meets their target. Cost to park: literally nothing. In fact, there would be additional revenue and profit, assuming rates are kept above operating cost (which, at those rates, they are).
• Solution B - Hastily install a new ride and hope demand increases. Cost to park: millions of dollars.

Considering that one of the two solutions earns more revenue, while the other costs millions of dollars, it should be obvious which solution makes the most sense.

You’re missing the point, CP and its world class, record breaking coasters, is what draws people to those hotels. Sure, dynamic pricing might change when and where someone stays during there visit. But the fact remains that CP is the draw in Sandusky.

Hotel Breakers, Express Hotel, Lighthouse Point, and Castaway bay are closed when CP isn’t open. By your account these places should be able to remain open with dynamic pricing.

[DispatchMaster]

37 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

You’re missing the point

You suggested that the new coaster may be heading to CP because the park's expectations for hotel reservations were not met.

I pointed out that it's nonsensical to spend several million dollars to sell a few extra rooms because in addition to it not making sense financially, dynamic pricing allows them to throttle demand in real time, and at no cost to the park. That the park's hotel has local competition or that there's an amusement park there are red herrings.

If Cedar Fair felt the resorts were not meeting their target, they would simply dynamically lower prices until demand increased to their target. Conversely, if demand were outstripping supply, they would dynamically increase prices until the two were in balance.

[Kenban]

I really think people are over thinking the reasons.  It’s likely similar to why and how Valravn was built.  The ride fit a difficult to fill space at Cedar Point.  

Years ago back when Rob Decker still worked at Cedar Fair, he was asked during a Q&A session about Valravn and why the design code for Yukon Striker is before Valravn, showing that while Valravn was built first, Yukon Striker was designed first.  He explained that during the design for Yukon Striker, someone from Planning and Design overlayed the ride on a space at Cedar Point that they were uncertain how to use and realized with some design changes it would fit.  Yukon Striker ended up getting delayed and Valravn was suddenly designed and built.

For anyone interested some information about the B&M design codes.  B&M uses typically 3 letters to signify the layout, the first two letters are the model, in this case DM for Dive Machine, then a single letter signifying the layout which are assigned in order, Yukon Striker is DMG, but Valravn which was built first is DMH.  Which is how enthusiasts knew Yukon Striker was designed first.  Orion is MCT, while Candymonium is MCR, meaning there is a missing layout.  MCS, likely the hyper for California’s Great America, designed but likely never to be built.

Cedar Point removed the dorms some time ago, and has likely been trying to find the right project to fill the space.  This coaster became available and it’s a good fit for the space.  It does feel like Cedar Point is chasing the title of most coasters in a park again.  Between this and top thrill reopening, the park will be at 18, or in the view of their marketing department, 19, since they count pipe scream.

[SmartCat7162]

I feel like it is a bit naive to believe that opening the new coaster had nothing to do with the failure of TT2 and it not being open this year. It definitely does not have much to do with selling hotel rooms. But having a coaster that will be open hopefully at the same time TT2 will open will help if there is even more downtime for the ride. No matter what happens next year a ride theoretically should open next year which would be sirens curse. Also like said above it fills a difficult spot to fill at the park.

[IndyGuy4KI]

It may not be as deep as "Look over there, they have an unclaimed coaster. Let's throw that in the park here to take attention off of TT2 in 2025".  Alternatively, it would be ludicrous to say that they did not discuss this during their decision making on this addition,

[disco2000]

4 hours ago, KIBeast said:

And that is purely speculation on your part, with no evidence to back your claim.

Same can be said about your claim...

[Bwb.32]

14 hours ago, disco2000 said:

18 hours ago, KIBeast said:

And that is purely speculation on your part, with no evidence to back your claim.

Same can be said about your claim...

It's almost like speculation is at least 90% of what we do here lol

[OverlandTaxis30]

34 minutes ago, Bwb.32 said:

It's almost like speculation is at least 90% of what we do here lol

And there is nothing wrong with speculation as long as we remember that it is just that. Speculation. 

And that we should not go so far as to immediately assume that it is true.

[DJSkyFoxx]

I miss the days where we could just speculate and have fun discussions without every single tiny nuance being dissected down to the T. This is a hobby, not a trial. In the grand scheme of things, none of the reasons really matter why piece A went to place B except to the people invested and involved in the businesses themselves. 

The microscope has no place here and nothing should be taken so seriously that an argument needs to ensue at every turn. Facts will come from the appropriate sources. As for the rest of us, we are just enthusiasts having fun. Afterall, that is the main point of being on these kinds of forums, right? 

[IndyGuy4KI]

1 hour ago, DJSkyFoxx said:

The microscope has no place here and nothing should be taken so seriously that an argument needs to ensue at every turn. Facts will come from the appropriate sources. As for the rest of us, we are just enthusiasts having fun. Afterall, that is the main point of being on these kinds of forums, right? 

Agreed, micro analyzing back and fourth takes all the fun out of it. Posts that do just that just rile people up for no reason. Those posts will be removed and offending members issued a warning going forward.