Kings Island to add “family thrill” attraction in 2026

[Diamondback_Is_King]

1 hour ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

Or maybe this is both for Carowinds' water ride and they're doing what they did for Fury and Orion where they file 2 names and pick one. 

What were the other names for Fury and Orion?

[beastfan11]

8 minutes ago, Diamondback_Is_King said:

What were the other names for Fury and Orion?

 Not sure on Fury, but I remember Polaris being discussed as another option for Orion. 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

9 minutes ago, Diamondback_Is_King said:

What were the other names for Fury and Orion?

Centurion and Polaris

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

31 minutes ago, beastfan11 said:

Timber Hallow could be a fun Rivertown dark ride/family thrill experience.  Would be fun to explore some of the more mythological aspects of the areas other attractions, like The Beast, MT, etc. 

The more i think about it, i think Timber Hallow is for a themed area probably the area where the water ride at Carowinds is going. 

[beastfan11]

7 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

The more i think about it, i think Timber Hallow is for a themed area probably the area where the water ride at Carowinds is going. 

I think you got it. That makes sense. 

[FUN&ONLY!]

With many of the ride concepts from Cedar Fair’s surveys now becoming a reality, I can’t help but wonder if the indoor/outdoor dark ride coaster from the 2024 Kings Island survey might actually happen too. Maybe this could be the 2026 “family thrill attraction? Maybe this can explain the alleged activity around The Crypt building?

[Orion742]

9 minutes ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

With many of the ride concepts from Cedar Fair’s surveys now becoming a reality, I can’t help but wonder if the indoor/outdoor dark ride coaster from the 2024 Kings Island survey might actually happen too. Maybe this could be the 2026 “family thrill attraction? Maybe this can explain the alleged activity around The Crypt building?

They could have been surveying for an attraction in the Crypt building maybe not the coaster itself.

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

I would honestly rather a fully indoor ride in that building. With KI focusing on dry park rides that can operate during Winterfest, a fully indoor ride would be better as a way to fully escape the outside elements no matter the time of year. 

[Losantiville Mining Co.]

2 hours ago, Orion742 said:

They could have been surveying for an attraction in the Crypt building maybe not the coaster itself.

I think I heard that this is the strategy the park uses with its surveys. If it were a coaster it would probably mess with the coaster schedule even more, therefore pushing a Vortex replacement back even further. 

[marineman]

On 5/21/2025 at 6:46 PM, Losantiville Mining Co. said:

I think I heard that this is the strategy the park uses with its surveys. If it were a coaster it would probably mess with the coaster schedule even more, therefore pushing a Vortex replacement back even further. 

EXACTLY! I had a discussion with a close friend of mine about whether Soapbox would delay things. He was in the camp of no, it won't. To me, it's always full circle with these kinds of things. "Hey look - we built a coaster! Might be a kid coaster with horrible throughput, but it's a coaster. We'll revisit in another 3-4 years."

No more BS to kick the can down the road. Build a flat ride, theater style interactive, or whatever in '26. Do it in whatever plot, except preferably not where Vortex sat. Then, get serious about pulling in RMC, Intamin, Mack, etc (not B&M) to build a legitimate intense thrill coaster with inversions, since we keep ripping them out and NOT replacing them. Plus, we have the fattest mid-tier, entry level, "family thrill" coaster lineup of any park I can think of. If the kids of the future can't work they way from The Beastie (no, that's not a typo, lol) to Orion with Kings Island's lineup, they never will. Both my kids just hit 54" within the past couple seasons to where they can ride everything, and we've hit a lot of other parks since then. I feel quite qualified to make this comment: we seriously don't need more in that "family-friendly coaster category.  

 

[BeeastFarmer]

3 hours ago, marineman said:

 Then, get serious about pulling in RMC, Intamin, Mack, etc (not B&M) to build a legitimate intense thrill coaster with inversions, since we keep ripping them out and NOT replacing them. Plus, we have the fattest mid-tier, entry level, "family thrill" coaster lineup of any park I can think of. 

 

Banshee replaced SOB.  That was in 2014.

Orion replaced Firehawk in 2020.

Mystic Timbers didn't replace anything.

Vortex hasn't been replaced.  This would be an opportunity to fill in the gap of a thrill coaster.

Kings Island is a family park.  That is what they cater to and will continue to do so.  I'd love to have a major thrill coaster as well, but  if we get rides that are the caliper of Mystic Timbers and Orion, I won't be mad.  

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

Orion is a major thrill coaster. Ik it's not Fury size but it's still a giga coaster and very few parks have one. I'd take Orion over a dive or wing coaster anyday. I'd also definitely take it over Firehawk and Vortex. 

Still holding out hope Vortex's replacement is 2027. That would also align with the 40th anniversary of the original Vortex so why not celebrate it with a reborn modern Vortex by Vekoma

 

[DonHelbig]

8 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

Orion is a major thrill coaster. Ik it's not Fury size but it's still a giga coaster and very few parks have one. I'd take Orion over a dive or wing coaster anyday. I'd also definitely take it over Firehawk and Vortex. 

Still holding out hope Vortex's replacement is 2027. That would also align with the 40th anniversary of the original Vortex so why not celebrate it with a reborn modern Vortex by Vekoma

 

I’m going with 2028 for The Vortex spot. 

[Tr0y]

3 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said:

Banshee replaced SOB.  That was in 2014.

Orion replaced Firehawk in 2020.

Mystic Timbers didn't replace anything.

Vortex hasn't been replaced.  This would be an opportunity to fill in the gap of a thrill coaster.

Kings Island is a family park.  That is what they cater to and will continue to do so.  I'd love to have a major thrill coaster as well, but  if we get rides that are the caliper of Mystic Timbers and Orion, I won't be mad.  

The 2026 attraction will replace Xtreme Skyflyer.

Id pass on getting another Orion but would be all for another Mystic Timbers.

What will happen is the park will look at the feedback from surveys, and choose the ride type people most voted for without taking the time to ask:

1) Why people like those rides.

2) What makes those rides so fun. 

Do you think people honestly filled out Water Coaster in the survey box because they rode an identical version of River Racers elsewhere? No, they went to Holiday World, rode one of those water coasters then said “Kings Island needs one of those rides!”

I understand there is budgets and real life ain’t rollercoaster tycoon. It doesn't need to break records but if you cant build a quality ride experience in the ride type people are asking for, then maybe the best move is to build something else that will provide a better ride experience overall. Who cares what the survey says, build the best ride experience with the budget on hand. An example of this would be Maverick or Mystic Timbers.

I would argue a $15million Mystic Timbers does better at being a wooden coaster than $30million Orion does at being a giga.

 

 

 

Edited June 4 by Tr0y
Coaster cost taken from Wikipedia

[beastfan11]

23 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

I would argue a $15million Mystic Timbers does better at being a wooden coaster than $30million Orion does at being a giga.

Profound way to put it. Couldn’t agree more. 

[DonHelbig]

55 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

The 2026 attraction will replace Xtreme Skyflyer.

A queue for a new Haunt maze is going in the Xtreme Skyflyer spot. 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

1 hour ago, DonHelbig said:

I’m going with 2028 for The Vortex spot. 

I could see that worse case scenario. What would be your 2027 prediction then? Boo Blasters replacement? Another Camp Snoopy expansion? Another Soak City expansion? Coney Mall/AZ flat ride package? 

[Captain Nemo]

2 hours ago, beastfan11 said:

Profound way to put it. Couldn’t agree more. 

Wow… that needs to be someone’s yearbook quote. Perfectly said!

[johnjniehaus]

5 hours ago, DonHelbig said:

A queue for a new Haunt maze is going in the Xtreme Skyflyer spot. 

LAME! 

But I'll let it slide if we get a new ride inside the tomb raider building 

[Losantiville Mining Co.]

I hope they choose to paint that BUB (big ugly building) or do something to try to hide it better from part of the skyline. There's no chance the park opts to put a mountain or anything else that could actually hide it around it, but some leafy green and sky blue paint could go a long way. Open up that entrance plaza just a little more into the grass right there to put a photo op in. And please, please, please do not get rid of the foliage on top of the entrance. There has already been enough taken out of Rivertown. I know the planning and theming team got laid off, but I will hold out hope that whoever is designing this ride will do something more than just an unthemed flat ride in a box with all of the Madame Fatale's pre-show decorations still put up. 

The nightmare scenario for me is something like a Zamperla Nebulaz shoved in there with the overhead lights turned off during the ride cycle. I wouldn't be opposed to something like a 4-table Demolition Derby (Mater's Junkyard Jamboree) with more theming than just the ride vehicles and operator booth. Best case scenario for me is something like a Vekoma Madhouse (Villa Volta) or an Intamin Dynamic Motion Stage (Danse Macabre). That last one is specifically classified as a "Family Thrill" attraction on Intamin's website, btw. Let's hope Six Flags budget tightening doesn't ruin this ride opportunity. 

 

Does anyone have a fun idea of what this "family thrill" attraction could be and what could fit in that building? I believe it is 90ft x 90ft square floor (not including any remaining TR:TR rock theming or anything else). I have no clue about the height. 

[robintodd]

15 hours ago, Tr0y said:

The 2026 attraction will replace Xtreme Skyflyer.

Id pass on getting another Orion but would be all for another Mystic Timbers.

What will happen is the park will look at the feedback from surveys, and choose the ride type people most voted for without taking the time to ask:

1) Why people like those rides.

2) What makes those rides so fun. 

Do you think people honestly filled out Water Coaster in the survey box because they rode an identical version of River Racers elsewhere? No, they went to Holiday World, rode one of those water coasters then said “Kings Island needs one of those rides!”

I understand there is budgets and real life ain’t rollercoaster tycoon. It doesn't need to break records but if you cant build a quality ride experience in the ride type people are asking for, then maybe the best move is to build something else that will provide a better ride experience overall. Who cares what the survey says, build the best ride experience with the budget on hand. An example of this would be Maverick or Mystic Timbers.

I would argue a $15million Mystic Timbers does better at being a wooden coaster than $30million Orion does at being a giga.

 

 

 

Funny you should point that out.  I filled out a survey and selected the water coaster even though I had never been to Holiday World nor ever ridden a water coaster.  My reasoning was the wet side needed some attention since it had been a while since something new was added there and to give me the ability to ride one. 

I believe RR is a good choice given the space, and taking into consideration the number of riders it can accomodate.  Again, I would argue that Soak City has no issue with attracting people to the wet side of the park.  I've seen it absolutely packed and feel the needed the new shade/chairs than they did a larger water coaster.

[Diamondback_Is_King]

16 hours ago, DonHelbig said:

A queue for a new Haunt maze is going in the Xtreme Skyflyer spot. 

Is this confirmed or were you just stating what you think is going to happen? I never saw anything but I could have missed it

[Tr0y]

14 hours ago, robintodd said:

Funny you should point that out.  I filled out a survey and selected the water coaster even though I had never been to Holiday World nor ever ridden a water coaster.  My reasoning was the wet side needed some attention since it had been a while since something new was added there and to give me the ability to ride one. 

I believe RR is a good choice given the space, and taking into consideration the number of riders it can accomodate.  Again, I would argue that Soak City has no issue with attracting people to the wet side of the park.  I've seen it absolutely packed and feel the needed the new shade/chairs than they did a larger water coaster.

Ignorance can be bliss. With that said, I don’t think the folks who gave River Racers the green light have ever ridden a water coaster either.

[Shaggy]

2026 is not a coaster.  It’s exactly what they’ve been saying - a family thrill ride.

Across the new merged chain, the large Capitol investments are planned for legacy SF parks over the foreseeable future to drive attendance.  SFMM, SFOT, SFOG, SFGADV are all receiving the bulk of Capitol expenditures over the next several seasons.  This is a move to boost Season Pass sales and attendance figures which have severely dipped in those major metro markets.

SF has also regionalized several park GMs/Presidents that have successfully proven their ability to increase their parks attendance rates.  Siebert single-handedly flipped the once struggling SFFT into a major player in the chain.  He’s now overseeing 6 SF parks-including the original -Six Flags Over Texas.  Jessica Naderman is a similar story - her tenures at Valleyfair and Dorney have seen major attendance boosts.  So she was named a Regional Manager now overseeing more than one park.

The mass removal of rides at the various merged parks was an immediate knee-jerk business move to rid parks of costly attractions that have lost all marketability and immediately reduce operating costs.  It’s also an effort to “clean up” parks that, quite frankly,  had evolved into a hodge-podge of janky rides.  This also served the dual purpose of clearing valuable real estate best used for future expansion/capitol.   KI was really the least phased park of the chain - mostly because Koontz had done such a great job of removing costly and run-down attractions and reviving dated areas of KI prior to the merge.  You can bet that had Vortex, Firehawk, Sling Shot all still existed at KI when the merger happened- they would have been on the wrecking-ball list.

KI will likely not be the recipients of a large coaster in the foreseeable future.   They’ve been able to maintain (actually boost) attendance over the past few years with the addition of more conservative investments  and broader-based family attractions.  (The company actually views the re-addition of the antique cars as their most successful recent investment at KI.)

Like it or not, Orion is largely viewed as a failure among CF(now SF) execs because it hasn’t seen a ROI.  There was an internal struggle over when to open Orion.  The park pushed to proceed and open the summer of Covid which ultimately compromised any gate bump the ride would have seen in a normal year.  Add in mediocre reviews of the ride (including bad-mouthing by enthusiasts-yes they hurt) and you get an overall disappointment by company leaders that now feel it has not warranted its cost.

None of this is secret news.  Investors have all been told this.  The goal is to focus on boosting attendance and improving infrastructure in the parks in the largest metro areas where they see the most potential for gate growth. 

KI is a cash cow, and isn’t seen as a priority currently.  Season pass sales remain some of the highest rates of any park in the chain.  So top brass will not want to mess with that recipe.

A sizable coaster project will definitely come to KI in the future… it’s just not a priority right now.  It will come when they feel a coaster will be needed to market and boost the gate.  Financial projections and forecasting will decide that timeline -not the need to fill an empty plot of land.

My prediction is River Racers will ultimately be viewed a success.  Had the ride not been “conservative” in its size and scope, then Execs would probably be biting their nails (given the unusually colder weekends) and (so-far) soft reaction.

My advice:

enjoy whatever they add.  Any “plussing-up” at KI is a good.  Remember- there was a recent season when the new investment was simply a Barbecue restaurant (and that was long before any merger.) And there’s lots of really great flats/thrill rides out there that (IMO) KI is more in need of currently.

[brenthodge]

26 minutes ago, Shaggy said:

2026 is not a coaster.  It’s exactly what they’ve been saying - a family thrill ride.

Across the new merged chain, the large Capitol investments are planned for legacy SF parks over the foreseeable future to drive attendance.  SFMM, SFOT, SFOG, SFGADV are all receiving the bulk of Capitol expenditures in order to boost Season Pass sales and attendance figures which have severely dipped in those major metro markets.  
 

The mass removal of rides at the various parks is a sweeping overhead move to rid parks of costly attractions that have lost all marketability.  It’s also an effort to “clean up” parks that, quite frankly,  had evolved into a hodge-podge of janky rides.   KI was really the least phased park of the chain - mostly because Koontz had done a good job of removing costly and run-down attractions and reviving dated areas of the KI.  You can bet that had Vortex, Firehawk, Sling Shot all still existed at KI when the merger happened- they would have been on the wrecking-ball list.

KI will likely not be the recipients of a large coaster in the foreseeable future.   They’ve been able to maintain (actually boost) attendance over the past few years with the addition of more conservative investments  and broader-based family attractions.  (The company actually views the re-addition of the antique cars as their most successful recent investment at KI.)

Like it or not, Orion is largely viewed as a failure among CF(now SF) execs because it hasn’t seen a ROI.  There was an internal struggle over when to open Orion.  The park pushed to proceed and open the summer of Covid which ultimately compromised any gate bump the ride would have seen in a normal year.  Add in mediocre reviews of the ride (including bad-mouthing by enthusiasts-yes they hurt) and you get an overall disappointment by company leaders that now feel it has warranted its cost.

None of this is secret news.  Investors have all been told this.  The goal is to focus on boosting attendance and improving infrastructure in the parks in the largest metro areas where they see the most potential for gate growth. 

KI is a cash cow, and isn’t seen as a priority currently.  Season pass sales remain some of the highest rates of any park in the chain.  So top brass will not want to mess with that recipe.

A sizable coaster project will definitely come to KI I the future… it’s just not a priority right now.  It will come when they feel a coaster will be needed to market and boost the gate.  Financial projections and forecasting will decide that timeline -not the need to fill an empty plot of land.) 

My advice-enjoy whatever they add.  Any “plussing-up” at KI is a good one.  And there’s lots of really great flats/thrill rides out there that (IMO) KI is more in need of currently.

All so very well stated. We saw some of this shift during the CF days, but I think we will see what many view as “neglect” even more with SIX. 

[DJSkyFoxx]

I realize feelings do no garner any movement when it comes to these major business matters, but I think the real issue here is that long time fans of the park still feel the absence of Vortex. Regardless of whether you loved or hated it, it was a big coaster with inversions that had a modest height restriction. It fit the bill as a thrill ride with high capacity, but one that allowed smaller riders to step into it pretty quickly if desired. We don't have a looping coaster with a 48" height requirement anymore, so families don't have that perfect balance of thrilling and accommodating for their younger kids who are ready for a bigger thrill that happens to have inversions. Vortex somehow kind of tied that area together and made it feel whole. 

And again, I know this really holds no bars in any of what is currently happening in this new business model. I'm just pointing out that the absence of a legacy attraction that was super accommodating and thrilling is still felt today and even those who are new to KI often ask what stood there before. It's just a massive plot of land to those who don't know, but to everyone else it's a somber reminder of what has yet to be fulfilled. I realize they have no need to build anything with a hurry. We probably won't see anything take that plot for awhile. Just pointing out a perspective that feels silently shared.

 

[Vortex1987]

On 5/21/2025 at 4:01 PM, FUN&ONLY! said:

With many of the ride concepts from Cedar Fair’s surveys now becoming a reality, I can’t help but wonder if the indoor/outdoor dark ride coaster from the 2024 Kings Island survey might actually happen too. Maybe this could be the 2026 “family thrill attraction? Maybe this can explain the alleged activity around The Crypt building?

Time for me to cancel my pass if this happens!!

 

What a HORRIBLE replacement. Why in the hell does Cedar Fair keep treating Cedar Point like its god and they always get incredible additions, (Including the tilt that they STOLE from SFNM) but every other park gets held back and gets  crap? TTD nearly kills someone and it gets revamped but Ka got demo-ed? 

 

This merger has been a  disaster and it always will be. All they're doing is they're doing anything they can to prop up Cedar Point.

 

If they put something so stupid in the former home of the best dark ride ever created, I'm revoking my pass and never going back. Same goes with The Vortex plot. That Vortex plot needs something incredible.

 

I HATE you Cedar Fair.

[Orion742]

1 hour ago, Shaggy said:

2026 is not a coaster.  It’s exactly what they’ve been saying - a family thrill ride.

Across the new merged chain, the large Capitol investments are planned for legacy SF parks over the foreseeable future to drive attendance.  SFMM, SFOT, SFOG, SFGADV are all receiving the bulk of Capitol expenditures over the next several seasons.  This is a move to boost Season Pass sales and attendance figures which have severely dipped in those major metro markets.

SF has also regionalized several park GMs/Presidents that have successfully proven their ability to increase their parks attendance rates.  Siebert single-handedly flipped the once struggling SFFT into a major player in the chain.  He’s now overseeing 6 SF parks-including the original -Six Flags Over Texas.  Jessica Naderman is a similar story - her tenures at Valleyfair and Dorney have seen major attendance boosts.  So she was named a Regional Manager now overseeing more than one park.

The mass removal of rides at the various merged parks was an immediate knee-jerk business move to rid parks of costly attractions that have lost all marketability and immediately reduce operating costs.  It’s also an effort to “clean up” parks that, quite frankly,  had evolved into a hodge-podge of janky rides.  This also served the dual purpose of clearing valuable real estate best used for future expansion/capitol.   KI was really the least phased park of the chain - mostly because Koontz had done such a great job of removing costly and run-down attractions and reviving dated areas of KI prior to the merge.  You can bet that had Vortex, Firehawk, Sling Shot all still existed at KI when the merger happened- they would have been on the wrecking-ball list.

KI will likely not be the recipients of a large coaster in the foreseeable future.   They’ve been able to maintain (actually boost) attendance over the past few years with the addition of more conservative investments  and broader-based family attractions.  (The company actually views the re-addition of the antique cars as their most successful recent investment at KI.)

Like it or not, Orion is largely viewed as a failure among CF(now SF) execs because it hasn’t seen a ROI.  There was an internal struggle over when to open Orion.  The park pushed to proceed and open the summer of Covid which ultimately compromised any gate bump the ride would have seen in a normal year.  Add in mediocre reviews of the ride (including bad-mouthing by enthusiasts-yes they hurt) and you get an overall disappointment by company leaders that now feel it has not warranted its cost.

None of this is secret news.  Investors have all been told this.  The goal is to focus on boosting attendance and improving infrastructure in the parks in the largest metro areas where they see the most potential for gate growth. 

KI is a cash cow, and isn’t seen as a priority currently.  Season pass sales remain some of the highest rates of any park in the chain.  So top brass will not want to mess with that recipe.

A sizable coaster project will definitely come to KI in the future… it’s just not a priority right now.  It will come when they feel a coaster will be needed to market and boost the gate.  Financial projections and forecasting will decide that timeline -not the need to fill an empty plot of land.

My prediction is River Racers will ultimately be viewed a success.  Had the ride not been “conservative” in its size and scope, then Execs would probably be biting their nails (given the unusually colder weekends) and (so-far) soft reaction.

My advice:

enjoy whatever they add.  Any “plussing-up” at KI is a good.  Remember- there was a recent season when the new investment was simply a Barbecue restaurant (and that was long before any merger.) And there’s lots of really great flats/thrill rides out there that (IMO) KI is more in need of currently.

I’m okay with the smaller investments the park has been receiving in the past few years. They’ve touched up some weaker parts of the park and made them look very nice. I wouldn’t mind if we got something like a madhouse in the Crypt building for 2026. I think another indoor attraction is always a win. Plus Rivertown doesn’t have any flat rides. My hope is that they touch up Action Zone in 2027 and give it a retheme. Then come 2028 I think it’ll be time to replace Vortex. I’d love to see a large scale Mack launch coaster similar to Stardust Racers. Maybe not dueling but make it bigger than one side of Stardust Racers. Stardust Racers has a height requirement of 48 inches which is perfect and I think they could do so much with a Mack multi launch coaster in that plot of land. Maybe 2-3 inversions. If it takes them a long time to find a worthy world class coaster to replace Vortex I have no problem waiting.

[DJSkyFoxx]

I would only be upset if they put something small/uninspiring in The Vortex plot, personally. But as far as what they do with TR:TR/Crypt building, almost anything would be better than its current use-which is pretty lackluster and sad. I wouldn't be opposed to the dark ride/coaster concept as I've stated before. If done right, it could be a really fun time and again, as mentioned, if it holds any candle to what my experience was with The Dark Knight coaster at SFGA was many years ago, it would be a welcome edition to add something different. It would liven up that desolate spot again.

I know there are many other ideas for use of that building, but it has been mostly vacant for so long that it would be about time to see it actually put to use instead of a seasonal Haunt display. They could re-use some of the current theming in there and integrate it into the dark ride/coaster type deal. Tie in some of the former history as much as they can without infringing on any past copyrights. Just trying to be optimistic. 

[Vortex1987]

4 minutes ago, DJSkyFoxx said:

I would only be upset if they put something small/uninspiring in The Vortex plot, personally. But as far as what they do with TR:TR/Crypt building, almost anything would be better than its current use-which is pretty lackluster and sad. I wouldn't be opposed to the dark ride/coaster concept as I've stated before. If done right, it could be a really fun time and again, as mentioned, if it holds any candle to what my experience was with The Dark Knight coaster at SFGA was many years ago, it would be a welcome edition to add something different. It would liven up that desolate spot again.

I know there are many other ideas for use of that building, but it has been mostly vacant for so long that it would be about time to see it actually put to use instead of a seasonal Haunt display. They could re-use some of the current theming in there and integrate it into the dark ride/coaster type deal. Tie in some of the former history as much as they can without infringing on any past copyrights. Just trying to be optimistic. 

I think whatever they do with that TRTR building, they should send me some of TRTR's theming. 

 

I'd pay a pretty penny to get my hands on any bit of it. Or the restraint off the seats sitting in FOF's building....  or a bolt or something off those seats...