Fixing the "Just Okay" Orion

[DonHelbig]

23 hours ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

Do you know anything about that soundtrack and was it discussed being used on the lift? I also think some sort of "mission accomplished" soundtrack on the brake run would've been cool. Kinda like the old "Awesome Great Job folks!" thing used on the Italian Job brake run back in the day. 

The launch of Orion was different than other new ride openings during my years at Kings Island. Everyone was working from home due to COVID-19 leading up to the opening of Orion, combined with a restructuring in marketing that led to less collaboration with these things. There weren’t the kinds of discussions there had been with previous new attractions to be able to tell you if that was considered. 

I agree a “Mission Accomplished” soundtrack would have been a cool ending. That’s something they easily could still add. 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

2 hours ago, johnjniehaus said:

Having said that it's still my #3 in the park and it was an improvement from Firehawk albeit less unique in the lineup. So I think for me it was a more than worthy replacement and if CGA hadn't run into permits and permission issues one must consider that we very well might not have gotten a giga at all so their loss was our gain

That's my thing here. I often wonder that if the CGA coaster happened and with the eventual pandemic soon to come would we still be waiting for the next big thing after Mystic Timbers to be added and would the old giga thread still be going with the constant arguments about one and the paint concepts? Tbh Im glad we got Orion for that reason! 

[KI Guy]

25 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

That's my thing here. I often wonder that if the CGA coaster happened and with the eventual pandemic soon to come would we still be waiting for the next big thing after Mystic Timbers to be added and would the old giga thread still be going with the constant arguments about one and the paint concepts? 

Under no circumstances would Kings Island go nine seasons without a major coaster installation. The current six seasons is already unprecedented. I don't know if KI would have gotten a giga post 2020, but they certainly would have gotten some type of coaster.

Personally, I would have rather they had put the CGA hyper somewhere else and put a little more imagination into the KI ride.

[DonHelbig]

12 minutes ago, KI Guy said:

Under no circumstances would Kings Island go nine seasons without a major coaster installation. The current six seasons is already unprecedented. I don't know if KI would have gotten a giga post 2020, but they certainly would have gotten some type of coaster.

Personally, I would have rather they had put the CGA hyper somewhere else and put a little more imagination into the KI ride.

We’re living a different world than we used to. 

[johnjniehaus]

25 minutes ago, DonHelbig said:

We’re living a different world than we used to. 

Isn't that the truth! 

 

We might complain because Kings Island has historically gotten new coasters more often but looking at some of the other parks like Michigan's Adventure and Six Flags St Louis - yeesh it's been almost two decades since they got anything good 

[Losantiville Mining Co.]

I've really enjoyed Orion every time I've ridden it. For me, it's fine as is. While I love finding ways to re-imagine parks and rides, most of what Kings Island has to offer is good enough as is. That being said I do really want to know how feasible it would have been to put an inversion or two somewhere in Orion's layout. What would change overall? Different trains and a little more steel for the extra track/supports? The world's/North America's first inverting giga coaster might've had a nice ring to it. Now that title will be taken by Tormenta at SFOT (which is also taller than Orion), though we'll have to wait to find out how the ride experience on that coaster turns out.

[KI Guy]

On 1/16/2026 at 4:00 PM, johnjniehaus said:

Isn't that the truth! 

 

We might complain because Kings Island has historically gotten new coasters more often but looking at some of the other parks like Michigan's Adventure and Six Flags St Louis - yeesh it's been almost two decades since they got anything good 

Yes, but Kings Island is not comparable to either of those two parks. Both combined wouldn't match Kings Island's revenue.

Not to be insensitive, but at the "at least"/"be glad" we're not Michigan's Adventure has always seemed like a cope by KI superfans.

I'm going to hold them to a the high standard that they've always had at least until very recently.

[johnjniehaus]

18 hours ago, KI Guy said:

Yes, but Kings Island is not comparable to either of those two parks. Both combined wouldn't match Kings Island's revenue.

Not to be insensitive, but at the "at least"/"be glad" we're not Michigan's Adventure has always seemed like a cope by KI superfans.

I'm going to hold them to a the high standard that they've always had at least until very recently.

Oh I don't disagree but let's face it times are changing and they aren't giving parks new additions like they used to with the exception of Cedar Point. I'm not saying I agree with them not investing in a other major coaster I'm just saying it can always get worse. At least they are still improving our water park, giving us a "new" section of the kids area, and bringing back a beloved dark ride. I look at a park such as Great Adventure that lost nearly 8 rides I believe since 2022 and I say, I'm so thankful we're not that park because there's always a worse end of the stick to get. Kings Island might not be the top flagship investment park it historically has been but at least so far I would say they haven't screwed us like they have some of the smaller parks and how they did great adventure 

[rlentless]

I would have liked if they put more low to the ground speed elements in the DA path area.  Just one more path with all that energy/speed we feel is still there at the break run.  Just feels like it ends too soon.

Other than that, to me it's a great ride.  Maybe they can still add the extra track back there and rebrand it as a new roller coaster.

[brenthodge]

On 1/13/2026 at 12:48 PM, SonofBaconator said:

If they were to alter the ride as it currently stands, I would make it 100% thematic.

Make the show building a must walkthrough. Sometimes, attendants have non-fastlane riders bypass the show building entirely before heading up the stairs which I’m not a fan of. It adds to the theme and everyone should have to go through it.

Add the IMAScore soundtrack in the station.

Add lift-hill audio featuring either the IMAScore soundtrack, instructions from the “Captain” or something in between.

Have audio on the final break run with the IMAScore soundtrack and/or audio encouraging riders to come back. 

This wouldn’t cost them anything but would add more theming and make the experience more immersive and memorable.

All that. They already have the resources, they just don’t use them. Enclosing the lower part of the lift and certainly the final brake with lighting/projection would be another fairly inexpensive add

[Outdoor Man]

On 1/16/2026 at 11:43 AM, DispatchMaster said:

Why are you assuming the installation of Orion did not sell tickets? More specifically, why are you assuming the performance of Orion has not or will not meet the targeted goals of the investment?

Answer my first question instead of commenting on a statement with your own question- where do you rate Orion in the list of 14? Though I will contend that Siren's Curse has sold more daily admissions to curious thrill seekers than Orion has done for KI. Multiple Choice: which would you like installed at KI given the choice:

• Orion
• Siren's Curse
• Voyage
• Night Flight Expedition

Again, it a "good" coaster, but VERY middle of the pack. Not a signature installation you would expect for the largest investment in the park; $30M could have been better spent than Diamondback 2.0.

[DispatchMaster]

13 hours ago, Outdoor Man said:

Answer my first question instead of commenting on a statement with your own question

I'm asking the question as a means to point out the absurdity of the claims you're making.

You stated that the "typical guest sentiment" is that Orion is "just OK". I'm asking how you arrived at this conclusion. Is there survey data somewhere that leads you to this conclusion?

You then stated that the park should have done something different in order to "sell tickets". I'm asking how you arrived at the conclusion that Orion did not "sell tickets" or otherwise meet the park's desired goals for the investment. Do you have access to the park's expectations for the ride? Or the performance metrics? Anything at all to substantiate the claim you're making?

It's one thing to say that you were personally underwhelmed by the ride, or that you wish they had done something different with the investment. It's another thing entirely to state with certainty that the park isn't hitting its expected attendance marks or that Orion is viewed by guests as underwhelming.

Others have pointed it out, but it bears repeating - enthusiasts generally are not great at understanding what it takes to run a successful, well rounded amusement park, because they tend to assume their own preferences are widely shared by the average guest. That is just not true.

[Orion-XL200]

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

enthusiasts generally are not great at understanding what it takes to run a successful, well rounded amusement park, because they tend to assume their own preferences are widely shared by the average guest. That is just not true.

Say this louder for the people in the back! 

[Outdoor Man]

5 hours ago, DispatchMaster said:

I'm asking the question as a means to point out the absurdity of the claims you're making.

You stated that the "typical guest sentiment" is that Orion is "just OK". I'm asking how you arrived at this conclusion. Is there survey data somewhere that leads you to this conclusion?

You then stated that the park should have done something different in order to "sell tickets". I'm asking how you arrived at the conclusion that Orion did not "sell tickets" or otherwise meet the park's desired goals for the investment. Do you have access to the park's expectations for the ride? Or the performance metrics? Anything at all to substantiate the claim you're making?

It's one thing to say that you were personally underwhelmed by the ride, or that you wish they had done something different with the investment. It's another thing entirely to state with certainty that the park isn't hitting its expected attendance marks or that Orion is viewed by guests as underwhelming.

Others have pointed it out, but it bears repeating - enthusiasts generally are not great at understanding what it takes to run a successful, well rounded amusement park, because they tend to assume their own preferences are widely shared by the average guest. That is just not true.

Rank it. 14 coasters; where do you place it?

[Orion-XL200]

Orion
The Beast
Adventure Express
Invertigo
The Bat
Diamondback
Racer
Queen City Stunt Coaster
Flight of Fear
Woodstock Express
Mystic Timbers
Snoopy's Soap Box Racers
Woodstock's Air Rail
Great Pumpkin Coaster

Where I rank Orion doesn't mean that those who don't post on KIC or aren't considered enthusiasts rank them the same place that I do or that @DispatchMaster would. Because you rank it lower, than me or Dispatch, doesn't mean that it's not a great coaster in the eyes of those who don't post on KIC or aren't "enthusiasts," or the general public.  

 

[Outdoor Man]

5 minutes ago, Orion-XL200 said:

Orion
The Beast
Adventure Express
Invertigo
The Bat
Diamondback
Racer
Queen City Stunt Coaster
Flight of Fear
Woodstock Express
Mystic Timbers
Snoopy's Soap Box Racers
Woodstock's Air Rail
Great Pumpkin Coaster

Where I rank Orion doesn't mean that those who don't post on KIC or aren't considered enthusiasts rank them the same place that I do or that @DispatchMaster would. Because you rank it lower, than me or Dispatch, doesn't mean that it's not a great coaster in the eyes of those who don't post on KIC or aren't "enthusiasts," or the general public.  

 

I'm just asking for his ranking. I'd place it 7th or 8th. Not bad. I'm not a coaster enthusiast; just someone that picks and chooses where to spend $. That said, it was the largest investment in park history and they installed a coaster that barely made it to giga status... and does not offer any unique experience that separates it from others in its category. 

[DispatchMaster]

46 minutes ago, Outdoor Man said:

Rank it. 14 coasters; where do you place it?

I will provide you with information that is of equal relevance to your claims about Orion - my ranking of 80's sitcoms:

1. Cheers
2. Family Ties
3. The Cosby Show
4. Perfect Strangers
5. ALF

[Outdoor Man]

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

I will provide you with information that is of equal relevance to your claims about Orion - my ranking of 80's sitcoms:

1. Cheers
2. Family Ties
3. The Cosby Show
4. Perfect Strangers
5. ALF

LOL...

OK- don't rank it. Guessing you're affiliated with the park or draw some sort of income from therein. No other could be that non-objective.

[TheCrypt]

8 hours ago, DispatchMaster said:

enthusiasts generally are not great at understanding what it takes to run a successful, well rounded amusement park, because they tend to assume their own preferences are widely shared by the average guest. That is just not true.

And your data is where, again? 

[DonHelbig]

12 minutes ago, TheCrypt said:

And your data is where, again? 

I don’t know where they get their data but mine comes from sentiment reports — the same kind of reports used by theme parks throughout the industry and decisions get made from. I’ve done several sentiment reports on Orion since it debuted in 2020. The sentiment is it’s a good ride, but not a ride that drives attendance. It hasn’t delivered the expected ROI. The Beast on the other hand continues to drive attendance going on 47 years since its 1979 debut. 

[Losantiville Mining Co.]

It's also hard to gather any definitive reports that would compare well to other major coasters because it a) opened during the middle of the pandemic when a number of guests were hesitant to travel/return to the parks, and b) operated for half of a "normal" season during a time where park attendance was limited and guests had to have a reservation to visit the park. I think one metric that hurts Orion's standings is that it is easily comparable to a small set of giga coasters and is a similar model to a larger set of hyper coasters (which are both the same model to the manufacturer). My data comes from this site and other park enthusiast community forums  

I think if Kings Island fans are looking for a coaster model that might do better in terms of ROI or guest sentiment, they should look to coaster models that are not as easily comparable to anything Cedar Point or Carowinds has. The new Vekoma Ghostrider model from the survey only has one installation that is still under construction. That could be compared to Maverick or Copperhead Strike, but even then, the Ghostrider model shown has a grouping of elements not seen in either of those.

Comparison is the thief of joy.

[DispatchMaster]

16 hours ago, DonHelbig said:

...not a ride that drives attendance. It hasn’t delivered the expected ROI.

I'll grant the sentiment angle, but I would like to hear more about how the attendance and ROI conclusion was reached. It's not as though public companies go out of their way to share data that demonstrates they made a poor 8-figure investment. In fact, public companies are always inclined to do the exact opposite - perform logical acrobatics to spin poor financial performance as the fault of anything other than their decision making.

But more to the point, as Losantiville Mining Co. points out, Orion did not debut in a vacuum! Instead of getting the normal first year bump in attendance - and thus a huge chunk of its expected ROI - Orion debuted during the pandemic, operating a fraction of the expected hours its first year, with limited attendance and capacity. Even in its second year when those restrictions were lessened, a nontrivial number of people simply were not traveling, depressing the park's attendance, and thus further depressing ridership and ROI.

There is no way to definitively untangle those effects versus the effect of the supposed guest sentiment that Orion is "just OK".

[DonHelbig]

3 hours ago, DispatchMaster said:

There is no way to definitively untangle those effects versus the effect of the supposed guest sentiment that Orion is "just OK".

What does the circumstances it opened under have to do with the ride experience Orion delivers, which is what the overall sentiment is derived from? 

[DispatchMaster]

I didn't suggest that it did.

You stated that the installation of Orion did not meet attendance and ROI targets, and seem to be suggesting that the reason it did not do so is because of the supposed guest sentiment that the ride is "just OK".

I'm pointing out that the ride opened during a pandemic, which is a rather monumental factor to consider when trying to analyze attendance and ROI. Therefore, I'm asking how you were able to determine that it was that guest sentiment, rather than a once-in-a-century pandemic, that is primarily to blame for Orion's poor performance.

[DonHelbig]

4 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

I didn't suggest that it did.

You stated that the installation of Orion did not meet attendance and ROI targets, and seem to be suggesting that the reason it did not do so is because of the supposed guest sentiment that the ride is "just OK".

I'm pointing out that the ride opened during a pandemic, which is a rather monumental factor to consider when trying to analyze attendance and ROI. Therefore, I'm asking how you were able to determine that it was that guest sentiment, rather than a once-in-a-century pandemic, that is primarily to blame for Orion's poor performance.

Simply put, I was there. Directly involved. Now let me ask you: What part of the 5,321 feet of track you travel on an Orion train would have been different had there not been a pandemic when it opened? That’s what the sentiment is based on — the ride experience. 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

I believe it was a mix of both. Yes there was a pandemic and a heavily restricted season Orion's inaugural year. At the same time when people did in fact get the chance to ride it outside of like the first weekend, the reviews that came in on social media were mixed. A lot of people (including me) praised the ride while a large number of people (including the general public not just coaster enthusiasts) were underwhelmed and prefered Diamondback. If the reviews were on the level of lets say Fury 325 or Steel Vengeance we probably would've seen a huge bounceback in people flooding to the park to experience Orion in like 2021-2022 post restrictions but we did not see that and I think a lot of that has to do with the mixed sentiment about the ride which didn't really draw people from far outside of the general market to experience it. 

I think in Mr. Koontz and the big wigs in Sandusky/Charlotte's mind when planning this ride was "We could get the same ROI on a 300 foot coaster that appeals to a broader audience as we would a Fury 325 style ride that breaks records while only spending 30 million instead of 35-40 million." And I think they found out that it doesn't quite work that way. Im not saying Mr Koontz and them regret building Orion, but I definitely believe the whole "family giga" idea came back to bite them a bit. 

Im honestly wondering if there was any pushback from those within the park/corporate in the planning meetings on the whole "family giga" idea or if everyone was fully on board. Personally if I was in those meetings I definitely would've fought back against the family giga thing and pushed for something more thrilling or even record breaking.