disco2000 Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 32 minutes ago, MoreFogPlease said: All I know is, this was not supposed to be a day for discussing tax accounting practices on this site... I am sure the accountants* that would have been in line for Orion right now would be discussing the tax accounting practices of CF and wondering which method they employed to write this baby off *If any would have been in line since tax day would have been right around the corner 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeastFarmer Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 Excellent Beast example! But of course people will say they could sell the wood to enthusiasts...but I still doubt they would sell enough to make it an asset for ride removal versus expense LOL... Yes, they have fixed costs whether the park is open or not...and they are finding ways to reduce that further (cutting full-time hours, reducing marketing costs, etc.). But at some point "Any income gained by opening the park would go against those costs" is not a true statement... Let's for example say fixed costs stay the same. If the park opens, they then have operational expenses (electricity, staffing, marketing, payroll, etc.) that get added on top of fixed costs and that becomes part of the cash input versus cash output equation. Fixed costs stay the same, so if the operational expenses are a larger number than the income generated by opening later in the year, what financial incentive do they have to open this year? If for every dollar they make, it costs them $10 dollars in operating expenses to make that $1, why open? While I agree with your post, I think the opportunity cost has to come into play. If they don't open at all in 2020, even if they extend passes to 2021, a certain percentage of pass holders will complain. They loose the opportunity to get them back, of they don't recapture. So they up the incentives. Some of those people won't come back, and the ones that do will expect x,y,z discount into infinity. They either offer or loose them too. Using easy numbers, if the park stays closed and the fixed costs are $50, and the park was planning on a top line revenue of $130, they are not just out $50, they are out $130. If they could open, still having fixed costs of $50, and variable costs of $50 and could make $90, they might consider it strongly. Zero income on a balance sheet might look worse to an investor than $90, even with a loss of $10 actual dollars and a profit loss of $40. It could indicate the company has management with a vision and a company that is nimble. Or it might not. Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gforce1994 Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 The Quebec government is calling for all festivals and public sporting and cultural events in the province to be cancelled until Aug. 31. Several government departments issued a joint news release Friday, saying that the cancellations must take place in the “context where certain health measures put in place to protect Quebecers from COVID-19 will have to be respected in the longer term.” Tourism Minister Caroline Proulx, Culture and Communications Minister Nathalie Roy and Isabelle Charest, the minister responsible for education, made the announcement. “This directive has been issued considering the evolution of the COVID-19 situation in Quebec and the need to respect in particular the guideline of a physical distance of two metres for an extended period,'' the ministers wrote. To offset the impact of the pandemic, the Quebec government is “planning and exploring various forms of accompaniment and support for festivals and events that it finances through its departments and their programs.” In short, LaRonde’s done for the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flightoffear1996 Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 The Ohio governor will be releasing a plan of restarting next week. What that entails I am not sure but he was very hopeful in his conference. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standbyme Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 4 hours ago, disco2000 said: Excellent Beast example! But of course people will say they could sell the wood to enthusiasts... Back in the day when they sold Son of Beast track pieces and bolts when it closed, the park originally stated that pieces of wood would be offered...then they nixed that idea....I believe it was because it was treated lumber and there were safety concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 1 hour ago, standbyme said: I believe it was because it was treated lumber and there were safety concerns. An idea seems so good until you get legal involved . Which is why I think there is more to the solution than just the money when (or if) it comes to park opening dates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2000 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 4 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said: While I agree with your post, I think the opportunity cost has to come into play. If they don't open at all in 2020, even if they extend passes to 2021, a certain percentage of pass holders will complain. They loose the opportunity to get them back, of they don't recapture. So they up the incentives. Some of those people won't come back, and the ones that do will expect x,y,z discount into infinity. They either offer or loose them too. Using easy numbers, if the park stays closed and the fixed costs are $50, and the park was planning on a top line revenue of $130, they are not just out $50, they are out $130. If they could open, still having fixed costs of $50, and variable costs of $50 and could make $90, they might consider it strongly. Zero income on a balance sheet might look worse to an investor than $90, even with a loss of $10 actual dollars and a profit loss of $40. It could indicate the company has management with a vision and a company that is nimble. Or it might not. I like your example and is inline with what I have been saying. The one difference however, is your example is whether they open or not based on the ability to hit a revenue target, or as you call it “top line revenue” to meet investor expectations. At this point, trying to meet investors expectations of record revenue and attendance is gone, so CF is not going to look at "top line revenue" as an indicator to try to meet as this will not be a record year on the positive side, so they will simply be looking at minimizing their losses and then bragging about it in their year end report. The fixed costs are a given, so if they can open and if the revenue generated by opening is more than the cost of opening and operating, they will consider it. If it is less, why spend more money to lose even more money...That’s like stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime… In your example, since the variable costs are less than the revenue generated, yes they would consider opening. This is in agreement with what I have previously posted! In my example, the variable costs would be more than revenue generated, in which case they wouldn't consider opening from a financial standpoint. If the money IN is not equal to or more than the money going OUT, they don't open. Same with our own finances. If the wage we make is less than the stuff we want to buy, we don't buy it (now granted loans and mortgages come into play, but even with those one should be taking out loans on what one can afford with monthly payments, not on what one wishes you could afford)...I wish I could have a Lamborghini but I can only afford an Accord...and a 1995 at that... Fact of the matter is, anyone can come on here and come up with infinite "using easy numbers" examples to justify their position whether they will open or not. In most cases, these will be guesses. Some will have rational justifications to support their position while others go with a generic "they will make money on merch sales"... Many of those guesses will be unrealistic or impossible (Knott's losing $500,000 in profit every day they aren't open is an unrealistic example). Some may be close. We really don't know. CF knows their numbers better than anyone. They make an attendance budget for every operating day based on historical information. They know when it would cost more to operate than the revenue generated. They know which days are their money makers and which ones aren’t. Over the course of the season, the days they make money are more than the days they don’t. They now have to weigh into this historical data the uncertainty of the times: How long will the “fear factor” last of people not wanting to be around crowds? Is it a month or 6 months? How much social distancing and other measures will they have to deal with, all with a cost? How much of a "degrading" of the experience will the guest accept to deal with the pandemic? Is it no shows? Is it Haunt without rides? How many of their daily admissions disappear because people have lost their jobs and cannot afford to go to the park this year? How much of their attendance will be season pass holders with meal and drink plans not buying anything else? How many of their company picnics disappear as companies skip on that expense this year? Daily admissions and company outings make up almost 50% of their attendance. If those disappear, where does a large chunk of their "new" revenue come from? Here is an example – let’s assume season pass sales cover all fixed costs. So operating costs comes strictly from their other attendance sources (which makes up roughly half the attendance). If the park opens too late in the year, what if their only attendance is season pass holders with meal and drink plans then where is the "new" operating revenue? The park will not sell enough merchandise from pass holders to pay for operating the entire park. As a business, they know based on historical data when it will cost more to open than the revenue generated. Then they have to take the above into consideration and likely move that date earlier in the year rather than later… Some on this forum or other fan sites think that if they get the all clear in the middle of December they are opening because they will get revenue from merch and t-shirt sales – again certainly not enough to pay for the entire operation; while others think it is July or any other time in between now and end of year or not at all. There is even a poll somewhere going on guessing the month. Someone suggested the park put food tents in the parking lot to let people get park food with their meal plan and sit in the lot in their cars and look at the park skyline while enjoying their park provided Skyline – again that would be an expense to the park with no new income generated. Sounds great from a pass holder perspective, but not a revenue generator from the park perspective… When we look at this from a business perspective and not a season pass holder perspective, the perspective changes... If the season ends up being a wash, I am confident that CF will do plenty of enticements to make the pass holders feel whole. More operating days in 2021, more ERT, more passholder days, etc. and anything else their market research tells them will "keep 'em coming back"... Some on here will take the park in whatever experience they can have it this year (even if that means half the rides shut down or no shows, etc.). Others would rather they skip a year and give them the full experience and more in 2021. Whatever they do, people will complain and will be lining up in the "make me whole department" line...wait wrong park forum again 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjcolglazier Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 1 hour ago, disco2000 said: While very informative, your post ignores not only the customer and the competition, but also the future. If other large entertainment venues are allowed to open and do open and are accepting American dollars, Kings Island would be foolish not to do the same. People will throw both their current and future dollars elsewhere determined by what is open "now", whenever "now" is. The park also knows this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Maybe someone could enlighten me on some questions I have: How much does it cost to keep the park open on any given day (power, electricity, employees, etc.)? What sort of regulation could the state put on large gatherings? How would a limited daily crowd versus daily cost affect Kings Island's revenue and would there be a point where it would be less profitable for them to be open? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 1. No idea 2. Same thing DeWine and Acton are doing now. If they can shut an election down they can keep a park closed. Sure courts could get involved but that generally takes time. The KY Governor is threatening to take license plate numbers in church parking lots this Sunday and enforcing a 14 day quarantine on them. 3. My assumption is attendance caps directly hurt revenue because the Passholders would come first. If the park prioritized daily ticket holders it would severely cheese off the Passholders. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2000 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 11 hours ago, bjcolglazier said: While very informative, your post ignores not only the customer and the competition, but also the future. If other large entertainment venues are allowed to open and do open and are accepting American dollars, Kings Island would be foolish not to do the same. People will throw both their current and future dollars elsewhere determined by what is "open". The park also knows this. I absolutely agree with you the park knows this, but opening and bleeding money and going bankrupt isn't a sustainable business plan either. If they open and a 2020 pass is good for all of 2020 and all of 2021, that has a serious impact on their long term capital expenditures... I'd rather they call the season instead of providing a mediocre experience because they cannot open everything or cut back on stuff and then use that investment to make the park better in the future. Regarding customers, the harsh reality is sometimes companies know they have such a captive audience, or has the ego to believe people will come regardless...what was the Kinzel famous quote "They gotta eat"... Where else local are you gonna go for rides, Coney Island? Nope Coney got rid of their rides. I guess we have Stricker's... This isn't your local lazer tag where there are 20+ of these in the tri-state area that you could spend your money at instead, this is Kings Island with limited local competition for what they offer...Sure you can take your money to a different experience, but not locally for what KI provides...they don't have the monopoly on it, but you have to drive to Louisville or farther to start to get something one would consider a similar experience...people get mad at KI, but they come back...especially if they are a roller coaster junkie.. Plus we are starting to see other places where we could spend our discretionary funds have already called their season - The outdoor theater in Chillicothe, Covington rec center not opening pools this summer...etc. More to come. You mention Cedar Fair competition, so let's look at that. Six Flags would probably be their real competition and they just issued a preliminary Q1 statement/update/press release. Most do not take the time to read investor statements and do research - including a large component of investors...they are long and boring...even longer than my posts , but a wealth of information can be obtained from these reports... These quarterly and yearly statements by publicly traded companies are largely "read between the lines" documents. They have to be truthful, but not to the point of being explicitly stated. The statements have to be able to pass the SEC scrutiny and a lawsuit by a class action group that feels they were misled and invested. Let's take a look at what SIX just said: Since closing its parks in March, the company has taken the following actions to reduce operating expenses: Eliminated nearly all of its seasonal labor costs, and positioned itself to maintain this low level until its parks reopen. Announced a 25 percent salary reduction for all executives and salaried employees and a 25 percent reduction in scheduled hours for all full-time hourly employees to 30 hours per week, subject to federal and state minimum requirements. Suspended all advertising and marketing costs. Intends to eliminate at least $30-40 million of additional non-labor operating costs in 2020, including the increased investments the company announced in its fourth quarter 2019 earnings release to improve the guest experiences. And the most telling statement: As of March 31, 2020, the company had cash on hand of $23 million and, including the revolving credit facility increase, net of $21 million of outstanding letters of credit, had $420 million available under its revolving credit facility. The company expects to have ample cushion under its debt covenants until at least the fourth quarter of 2020, even if the parks were to remain closed. The company has no debt maturities until 2024. At this time, the company believes it has sufficient liquidity to meet its cash obligations until the opening of the 2021 operating season. Those are very telling statements. Reading between the lines, what would be eliminating $40million of non-labor costs and investments announced during Q4 of 2019...Sounds like all new for 2020 will now become all new for 2021...or an awful lot of toilet paper and light bulbs aren't being purchased A savvy investor will read this line "At this time, the company believes it has sufficient liquidity to meet its cash obligations until the opening of the 2021 operating season." and recognize this implies that they may not open this year. It doesn't mean they won't open, but they are also telling investors that they can weather this storm until 2021 if they need to. The SIX park in Canada probably won't open based on latest stay-at-home thru August 31st for example... So if someone dumps all their life savings into SIX stock this month thinking the park will open in May and their stock value would jump and they make money and then SIX doesn't open and the stock dives and said person files a lawsuit claiming they were misled, SIX attorneys could point to this single sentence and center their entire defense around it and supplement it with all the other information they have provided... It will be interesting to see what the FUN Q1 report says... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjcolglazier Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 12 minutes ago, Joshua said: How would a limited daily crowd versus daily cost affect Kings Island's revenue and would there be a point where it would be less profitable for them to be open? I am only guessing here, but I'd bet there are a lot of days in a typical year they lose money---would've been better off closing. Mostly because of weather which cannot be predicted, but is just part of their equation. Limiting crowds will cost them money. But closing altogether to save a dollar today could lose them even more money looking forward when people lose confidence in their posted hours. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2000 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 3 minutes ago, bjcolglazier said: I am only guessing here, but I'd bet there are a lot of days in a typical year they lose money---would've been better off closing. Mostly because of weather which cannot be predicted, but is just part of their equation. Limiting crowds will cost them money. But closing altogether to save a dollar today could lose them even more money looking forward when people lose confidence in their posted hours. And yet in 2019 they made what many people called unprecedented weather closures on days they would have stayed open previously... That discussion of people losing confidence in their posted hours started last year... on this forum and on Facebook... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 14 minutes ago, bjcolglazier said: I am only guessing here, but I'd bet there are a lot of days in a typical year they lose money---would've been better off closing. Mostly because of weather which cannot be predicted, but is just part of their equation. Limiting crowds will cost them money. But closing altogether to save a dollar today could lose them even more money looking forward when people lose confidence in their posted hours. I would tend to agree with that if they chose to close because of a recession or such other excuse. This is very different. If they stay closed it will be because it is not safe for their workers and/or guests or because of a State order which they are currently under. Passholder Preview did not happen today not just because they are being responsible corporate citizens. The State Police would have arrested top management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Meyer Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 5 hours ago, flightoffear1996 said: The Ohio governor will be releasing a plan of restarting next week. What that entails I am not sure but he was very hopeful in his conference. Restarting what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Coasters 325 Posted April 11, 2020 Author Share Posted April 11, 2020 32 minutes ago, Shawn Meyer said: Restarting what? Restarting the economy. But it will be gradual. It won't happen like the flick of a switch. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standbyme Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 10 hours ago, disco2000 said: Whatever they do, people will complain and will be lining up in the "make me whole department" line... I know...they used to say that the only things you could count on in life were death & taxes...but they need to update that saying to include this! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyGuy4KI Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 That last conversation was cleaned up. Moving along. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 The Costly Toll of Not Shutting Down Spring Break Earlier People got sick — and some died — after attending crowded parties and theme parks in Florida as the coronavirus spread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klabergian Empire Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 39 minutes ago, King Ding Dong said: The Costly Toll of Not Shutting Down Spring Break Earlier People got sick — and some died — after attending crowded parties and theme parks in Florida as the coronavirus spread. This honestly grinds my gears. I remember watching a news report on television and the reporter was interviewing a spring breaker. That (quite foolish) person said quote: "It's my 21st birthday and I don't care about the virus. I'm on Spring Break ". Utter foolishness that could get someone infected and killed, as it is already happening to some of the spring breakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Coasters 325 Posted April 11, 2020 Author Share Posted April 11, 2020 Also don't get me started on that Milford kid that said he doesn't care if he gets Corona he just wants to party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2000 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 14 minutes ago, Klabergian Empire said: This honestly grinds my gears. I remember watching a news report on television and the reporter was interviewing a spring breaker. That (quite foolish) person said quote: "It's my 21st birthday and I don't care about the virus. I'm on Spring Break ". Utter foolishness that could get someone infected and killed, as it is already happening to some of the spring breakers. And of course, Milford's own "If I get Corona..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thabto Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 There needs to be something done about Walmart and other stores. Most stores in my areas were packed today. Even with the 5 people per 1000 square foot rule, some big stores that still allows upwards of 1000 people in the store. That really changed nothing. There's never that many people in a store. Home Depot is about the only store doing something right. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjcolglazier Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 49 minutes ago, Thabto said: There needs to be something done about Walmart and other stores. Most stores in my areas were packed today. Even with the 5 people per 1000 square foot rule, some big stores that still allows upwards of 1000 people in the store. That really changed nothing. There's never that many people in a store. Home Depot is about the only store doing something right. There's a scientific argument that only allowing people to go to the grocery is actually the fastest way to herd immunity. It's not mainstream, but something to think about. It's basically, "Don't leave home. But if you do---everyone go "here". 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 Today was the first day I have ventured out of my neighborhood since the 3/16 so my son could mow his teachers lawn. Drove by the Costco on the way back home and it dead about 3. Lot 1/4 full. Kroger didn’t look that busy either. I don’t get it. Everyone says how bad it is out there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 23 minutes ago, bjcolglazier said: There's a scientific argument that only allowing people to go to the grocery is actually the fastest way to herd immunity. It's not mainstream, but something to think about. It's basically, "Don't leave home. But if you do---everyone go "here". How is that faster than just doing nothing and allow everyone to go “everywhere”? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjcolglazier Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 8 minutes ago, King Ding Dong said: Today was the first day I have ventured out of my neighborhood since the 3/16 so my son could mow his teachers lawn. Drove by the Costco on the way back home and it dead about 3. Lot 1/4 full. Kroger didn’t look that busy either. I don’t get it. Everyone says how bad it is out there. Yeah, I don't live in a major city but big college town. Vast majority of the students are gone, and medium/small-ish town otherwise, things are relatively quiet. I'm only going to the grocery when I have to both because of the virus, and because it's just eerie. The struggle is real when you realize you walked 15 feet past an item you need, but there's people already occupying that spot trying to "distance" themselves from yourself. Ugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thabto Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 6 minutes ago, King Ding Dong said: How is that faster than just doing nothing and allow everyone to go “everywhere”? I was wondering the same thing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjcolglazier Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 11 minutes ago, Thabto said: I was wondering the same thing The stay-at-home orders in particular plus store actions probably blow this science out of the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 22 minutes ago, bjcolglazier said: Yeah, I don't live in a major city but big college town. That is what everyone calls Cbus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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