Does KI compete with area parks?

[SonofBaconator]

I see billboards for Kentucky Kingdom constantly and with the small little park growing healthier and healthier every season, is it safe to say that Kentucky Kingdom is decent competition for Kings Island? Holiday World could also be brought up as well. Thoughts?

[BeeastFarmer]

I see billboards for Kentucky Kingdom constantly and with the small little park growing healthier and healthier every season, is it safe to say that Kentucky Kingdom is decent competition for Kings Island? Holiday World could also be brought up as well. Thoughts?

On a certain level yes. I'm sure KI has lost some guests to KK. But specifically to KK and HW, I don't think these parks are in the same level as KI. They will hopefully encourage competition, which would make a healthier KI. Now if we could only get good music back on International Street. (yes, it has angered me that much lol)

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[CoastersRZ]

In the case of Kentucky Kingdom, I think they are desperate to try and attract more people through the gates to reach their attendance goals.

There might be some competition, particularly in the Louisville for KI and Holiday World with Kentucky Kingdom.  I doubt that too many people will choose to go to Kentucky Kingdom over going to Kings Island in the Cincinnati area.  In this day and age, I think parks as a whole are competing with other forms of entertainment verses competing with other regional parks.

[Aaron88stang]

Yes but they are not close enough that they are going to destroy one another. KK has probably hurt HW way more than it could KI but in general competition is almost always a good thing for us consumers. 

[gforce1994]

10 minutes ago, jtro223 said:

On a certain level yes. I'm sure KI has lost some guests to KK. But specifically to KK and HW, I don't think these parks are in the same level as KI. They will hopefully encourage competition, which would make a healthier KI. Now if we could only get good music back on International Street. (yes, it has angered me that much lol)

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“Not at the same level when it comes to KI”. If you’re talking about the rides, I’d tend to agree, however, if you’re talking waterpark, then that is a load of bull. KI has the better coaster and flat ride line up, but HW and KK have a far superior waterpark than what KI has. For instance at KK, you have the second tallest free fall slide in the world, 4 bowl slide towers, water coaster, 2 tube slide towers, 2 lazy rivers, 2 wave pools, a bar, 2 raft slide towers......

At Holiday World you have #1 and #2 ranked water slide in a top ranked water park, 3 funnel/bowl slide towers, large mat racer, 3 kids areas etc.....

And no, the music isn’t coming back as they are using it as a way to influence reviews of teens/ young adults to try to gain a larger foothold in that market.

[BeeastFarmer]

“if you’re talking waterpark, then that is a load of bull. KI has the better coaster and flat ride line up, but HW and KK have a far superior waterpark than what KI has. For instance at KK, you have the second tallest free fall slide in the world, 4 bowl slide towers, water coaster, 2 tube slide towers, 2 lazy rivers, 2 wave pools, a bar, 2 raft slide towers......
At Holiday World you have #1 and #2 ranked water slide in a top ranked water park, 3 funnel/bowl slide towers, large mat racer, 3 kids areas etc....

My personal bias comes into play here as I don't care about water parks. But it is interesting to note that in 2015, KI added the Space Buggies and Gliders, after KK had the same rides added the year before, in 2016, there was a water park addition and KK had expanded with reopening, and in 2017, KI added a coaster after KK had added one in 2016. Probably a coincidence, but maybe not lol.



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[gforce1994]

9 minutes ago, jtro223 said:

 

 

My personal bias comes into play here as I don't care about water parks. But it is interesting to note that in 2015, KI added the Space Buggies and Gliders, after KK had the same rides added the year before, in 2016, there was a water park addition and KK had expanded with reopening, and in 2017, KI added a coaster after KK had added one in 2016. Probably a coincidence, but maybe not lol.



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It’s definitely not. In the late 1990s there was a coaster war between KK and KI. SOB was built to such a large scale, it freaked SF into investing in GL rather than at KK.

[MDMC01]

And interestingly enough, both SFWOA/Geagua Lake and Kentucky Kingdom closed down since then, and only one has fully re-opened.

Full Disclosure: I love the idea of SFWOA, but I just find it interesting that both of former Six Flags parks that were used to try to compete with KI during the 90's and early 2000's closed in the mid-2000's.

[rhyano]

I think Kentucky Kingdom is competing with Kings Island, but as said Kings Island is so much bigger than Kentucky Kingdom, I think Kentucky Kingdom is more of a local amusement park, while Kings Island is more well known. I do think Kentucky Kingdom competes more with Holiday World, when I was there Sunday, there was a Thunderbird ad clearly visible from Storm Chaser!

[silver2005]

I would consider Kentucky Kingdom and Holiday World more as niche parks within this area rather than straight up competitors to Kings Island. 

[kirbias1]

3 hours ago, gforce1994 said:

“Not at the same level when it comes to KI”. If you’re talking about the rides, I’d tend to agree, however, if you’re talking waterpark, then that is a load of bull. KI has the better coaster and flat ride line up, but HW and KK have a far superior waterpark than what KI has. For instance at KK, you have the second tallest free fall slide in the world, 4 bowl slide towers, water coaster, 2 tube slide towers, 2 lazy rivers, 2 wave pools, a bar, 2 raft slide towers......

At Holiday World you have #1 and #2 ranked water slide in a top ranked water park, 3 funnel/bowl slide towers, large mat racer, 3 kids areas etc.....

And no, the music isn’t coming back as they are using it as a way to influence reviews of teens/ young adults to try to gain a larger foothold in that market.

Yes, I agree HW and KK both have better water parks.  I always did wonder why Cedar Fair always chooses second tier slides instead of trying to add top tier slides like Wildebeest, Mammoth, etc. Cedar Fair has more money to do it, but they choose not to try and make their water park world class, like the dry park.

[bjcolglazier]

I live in NW Indiana.  Indiana Beach is about 30 minutes from my house.  I'm in no way an expert on this topic, but I will say that most of the chatter I hear about amusement parks around here is Holiday World related.  I've never even been there, but my wife and kids have.  Thanks to Interstate highways Kings Island is faster to get to by at least an hour, but...my only thought is that Holiday World advertises well in our part of the state, despite the fact KI is easier to get to.  The Indianapolis TV stations frequently have Kentucky Kingdom advertisements as well---I see them all the time.  So regardless of which of these parks is the "best", I will say there is definitely competition out there.  At least for Indiana consumers. Cedar Point is part of the competition too, obviously.

[Rivertown Rider]

I would agree that they view Kentucky Kingdom as competition but I also agree that they compete with a lot of things in the area whether it be the Reds, Bengals, Zoo, or FC Cincinnati.  Competition does help keep them improving the park though.

[TheRickster]

HW and KK are simply making the most of their own market, and people are not going to be as out to drive 3+ hours to go to Kings Island if there are attractions a lot closer. HW is unique because in it's area it's all that there is to do there. That's why the waterpark is so successful. Rural cities and areas like that don't have hardly any money, let alone more liberal use of that money to build even like a simple city ran pool/waterpark.

[MaestroJr]

9 hours ago, CoastersRZ said:

In the case of Kentucky Kingdom, I think they are desperate to try and attract more people through the gates to reach their attendance goals.

There might be some competition, particularly in the Louisville for KI and Holiday World with Kentucky Kingdom.  I doubt that too many people will choose to go to Kentucky Kingdom over going to Kings Island in the Cincinnati area.  In this day and age, I think parks as a whole are competing with other forms of entertainment verses competing with other regional parks.

I live near Lexington,KY and my family has always chosen Kings Island over any other park, it's funny cause I feel much more at home in Cincy then in Louisville and Kings Island has always been my home park in another state. I agree though location is key, you live in Louisville driving 10 mins over 2 hours is no question but from here it's almost even and KI is my choice, always will be! MaestroJr

[SonofBaconator]

I'm kinda surprised Holiday World hasn't hit 200ft yet, especially since it's easy to do with Dive Machines. That'd give the park some type of competitive edge.

[TheRickster]

2 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

I'm kinda surprised Holiday World hasn't hit 200ft yet, especially since it's easy to do with Dive Machines. That'd give the park some type of competitive edge.

They are still rather new to the hardpark life... Gotta have a support staff to support big rides. They'll get there eventually, but they can't grow quicker than their foundation. Voyage is already probably in a place it wouldn't be if it wasn't such a massive ride.

[AZ Kinda Guy]

On 11/1/2017 at 10:26 PM, TheRickster said:

They are still rather new to the hardpark life... Gotta have a support staff to support big rides. They'll get there eventually, but they can't grow quicker than their foundation...

You do realize HW has been around longer than KI right?

[TheRickster]

13 hours ago, AZ Kinda Guy said:

You do realize HW has been around longer than KI right?

I do, but they didn't really start expanding until 84. Then rides like voyage, legend, and raven will call for a much bigger maintenance presence than the flatrides they had before then.

[Oldschool75]

On 10/4/2017 at 3:34 PM, Aaron88stang said:

Yes but they are not close enough that they are going to destroy one another. KK has probably hurt HW way more than it could KI but in general competition is almost always a good thing for us consumers. 

Other things have hurt HW in the last season that is more damaging than KK. From what I have heard circulating, things may not be so hunky dory in Santa Claus, IN. I'm sure there are a couple of vultures just waiting for the chance to snatch it up. I honestly think someone will end up buying the park from the Koch family.

I have 2 educated guesses to who I think would be interested. 

1) Cedar Fair

Why?

• Potential - The Koch family still owns a ton of undeveloped land around the park but lack the capital to develop it like a CF or SF. CF could expand the park and build hotels and other amenities to increase attendance and capital. 
• Midwest Dominance in the amusement park industry. It would probably be the death nail for KK, but it would severely hamper Six Flags dominance in the MO, IL, and Western IN, and KY market. Six Flags only has 2 parks in the midwest (St. Louis and Great America). Consumers would have a better value with a CF Platinum pass which would work at six parks in the region compared to two parks for Six Flags. 

2) Ed Hart 

Why?

• Kentucky is landlocked and has a height restriction that hampers the ability to install more rides and taller rides. This hurts growth.  HW is his biggest competitor in the area. 
• If Hart owned both parks he could create a small chain which would allow him to add a "premium" pass for access to both parks. This would generate more attendance and capital and allow the chain to grow.    
• The KK/HW chain would control the area and then would have to up the game to complete with SF and CF

[mayaman2]

2 hours ago, Oldschool75 said:

Other things have hurt HW in the last season that is more damaging than KK. From what I have heard circulating, things may not be so hunky dory in Santa Claus, IN. I'm sure there are a couple of vultures just waiting for the chance to snatch it up. I honestly think someone will end up buying the park from the Koch family.

I have 2 educated guesses to who I think would be interested. 

1) Cedar Fair

Why?

• Potential - The Koch family still owns a ton of undeveloped land around the park but lack the capital to develop it like a CF or SF. CF could expand the park and build hotels and other amenities to increase attendance and capital. 
• Midwest Dominance in the amusement park industry. It would probably be the death nail for KK, but it would severely hamper Six Flags dominance in the MO, IL, and Western IN, and KY market. Six Flags only has 2 parks in the midwest (St. Louis and Great America). Consumers would have a better value with a CF Platinum pass which would work at six parks in the region compared to two parks for Six Flags. 

2) Ed Hart 

Why?

• Kentucky is landlocked and has a height restriction that hampers the ability to install more rides and taller rides. This hurts growth.  HW is his biggest competitor in the area. 
• If Hart owned both parks he could create a small chain which would allow him to add a "premium" pass for access to both parks. This would generate more attendance and capital and allow the chain to grow.    
• The KK/HW chain would control the area and then would have to up the game to complete with SF and CF

Honestly, I would love either of these. Ed Hart buying the park would be a great boom and a unified HW/KK would make some nice competition for CF to try and up the ante at KI.

Alternatively, HW being under CF would open the park up to a lot more possibilities and stability, not to mention it would be great for me to have another park in the area I can get into for free and have employee benefits at, considering I'm a KI employee ;).

[Hmrapp]

All those reasons that you stated are very viable and valid options given the financial capabilities of Cedar Fair and Six Flags. However, I feel I can speak for all enthusiasts who know about the late Will Koch and the family ordeal that occurred after his tragic and abrupt passing. To make a long story filled with legal family arguments and many severed relationships. 70 years ago Holiday World was founded by So Louis J. Koch, two generations later So Louis J. Koch's grandson (Will Koch) took management over Holiday World and it's operations. Will's innovation lead to two great CCI coasters that call Holiday world home. The Legend and The Raven truly put Holiday World onto the map and enabled a larger woodie to rise out of the wooded, southwestern Indiana wilderness. In 2001 Will tragically passed away due to diabetes complications. As result his widow, Lori Koch took control of the park. Will's brother Dan Koch was promoted to interim president, however, due to severe disputes and disagreements Lori fired Dan completely destroying a family. Dan and his mother (Pat Koch) moved down to Alabama to form Alabama Splash Adventure. The dry park features Rampage, a 120 foot, terrain twisting, CCI woodie. Though unlikely, I would love to see Dan and Pat rekindle their severed ties with Lori and the rest of the Koch family. Similar to Herschend Family Entertainment, who owns both Dollywood and Silver Dollar City. I feel the only way that Holiday World can endure the brutal amusement business in the Midwest is if the Koch's would reunite and invest equally in both parks. Hopefully, love and family will prevail in this situation possibly preserving the fate of Holiday World and Splashin' Safari. Sorry KI, I hope to see a classic, family-run park succeed! 

[IndyGuy4KI]

It is still hard walking up to HW and not seeing Pat greeting everyone as you come in and as you leave. I had a long conversation with Dan a few years before Thunderbird was put in as they were looking heavy for a steel coaster manufacturer. We talked about manufacturer considerations for 15 minutes and he asked my opinion. That is what made it a great park and makes you want to go back. Something you will never get at a CF or Six park. They can not provide that personal touch a family owned park can.

Getting back on topic, I don't think KI sees KK or HW as much competition. Looking at CF's quarterly reports I am not sure I would either. Now, if HW and KK were to install a Hyper or Giga, (Even though we are aware of the restrictions at KK) they might be needing to get worried. 

[Creed Bratton]

I'm not sure how far of a reach Kentucky Kingdom has with Billboards into Ohio....but I will say I've not seen many, if at all near Columbus (an hour and a half ish away from KI). I did recently see one in Shelbyville, Indiana (an hour and a half ish away from KI)...I don't think Kentucky Kingdom really competes with the markets for Kings Island, you would think there would be more advertising in a higher populated area (Columbus) vs. a lower populated area (Shelbyville, Indiana).

However, Shelbyville, In is closer to KK than Columbus, OH is.

[IndyGuy4KI]

HW and KK advertise heavy in Indy. Way more than KI.  I am refering to Billboards.

[BeeastFarmer]

I've seen 2 KK billboards on 75 in Cincinnati. I think they want to focus on low hanging fruit before more distant markets like Columbus.

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[medford]

There is a KK billboard (or at least was as of a few weeks ago) on the 48 express way, about 5 miles (give or take) north of Kings Island. I'd venture that a large % of KI's patrons in the south Dayton suburbs pass this billboard on their way home from the park.

[IndyGuy4KI]

Maybe KK is trying to pull in the already existing KI passholders for a weekend of something different?

[King Ding Dong]

I left St. Louis in 2015 and had never heard of HW except for forums.  I have heard they have started to advertise some in STL since, but at that distance it is not a day trip  (about 3:15 from west burbs, except for you-know-who).   4:30 minutes from Columbus even worse.

Would like to go sometime however it is hard to justify $500 (admission for 3-4, gas, hotel, food) to take a one day trip when my incremental cost for a day at KI or CP is only $30 in gas. 

A trip to any of the other CF parks east of here would be less expensive.  The out of state discounts at KK are a smart move otherwise I would never consider it for such a small park.

[jcgoble3]

7 minutes ago, King Ding Dong said:

I left St. Louis in 2015 and had never heard of HW except for forums.  I have heard they have started to advertise some in STL since, but at that distance it is not a day trip  (about 3:15 from west burbs, except for you-know-who).   4:30 minutes from Columbus even worse.

Would like to go sometime however it is hard to justify $500 (admission for 3-4, gas, hotel, food) to take a one day trip when my incremental cost for a day at a CF park is only $30 in gas. 

For Holiday World, you can tent camp next door at Lake Rudolph for $40 to $45 per night, depending on the day of the week and how early or late in the season it is. They typically offer 10% off throughout the season with proof of membership in a coaster club eligible for HoliWood Nights. (Do be aware that Lake Rudolph sometimes enforces two-day minimum stays.)

Alternatively, if you're willing to drive a little bit, there's a state park nearby where you can pitch a tent at a fraction of that price.