Expansion isn’t the answer

[SonofBaconator]

Every time I come on here, or other KI related platforms, it’s always the same thing:

“Action Zone needs expansion. Rivertown needs expansion. Etc.” 

Let’s look at the past 5 years:

In 2017, about 95% of Mystic Timbers was built inside the railroad. Fast forward to 2019, when the Antique Autos were built in a small footprint of land. Fast forward a year to 2020 when Orion was built hugging The Racer as opposed to going in another direction, which would’ve ultimately left plenty of room for expansion. Now fast forward 3 years when we’re about to get Adventure Port where two new flat rides are being placed in a rather tight space.

I think that what we’re seeing is an attempt to keep everything within developed land as opposed to pushing into undeveloped parts of the property. This attempt, at least in my humble opinion, keeps people in close quarters to other assets. Look at Area 72- you have Flight of Fear and Orion next to each other, but not too far away you also have dining options and a sitting area. Now look at Adventure Port, you have two new rides right across from other dining options and sitting areas. By putting more rides closer to one another near these areas, people tend to stay longer. After riding Sol Spin, people might choose to sit down and buy a beverage at Mercado before going to Adventure Express or the Cargo Loco.
 

These “micro sections” encourage people linger and spend more money, as opposed to being a place to pass through. I argue we could see more of these micro sections emerge. Look at the space between Coney Mall and Rivertown- they could turn that into its own micro section with a dining area and places for people to sit while maybe adding a flat or two similar to Adventure Port. The longer people stay in these sections, the longer their day becomes and I argue the likeliness of them spending money increases.

Maybe I’m totally wrong, but I don’t think expanding outward is the answer- developing inward is.

[CoastersRZ]

The other thing is, when you expand out you have more infrastructure to construct.  Utilities, pavement, etc.  Staying compact lets you not spend money on constructing new utilities and infrastructure.  And as you noted, it can force people to patronize the existing food stands and merchandise locations.

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

This is what I try to educate people on. People always say they should expand and build a whole new section behind Banshee, while I think that would be cool and I have made concepts on that, I think the likelihood of that actually happening is very slim as the amount of things that you would need would likely not be worth it for the ROI and the ROI would be better if they just retheme/add rides/replace old rides in current areas. 

[BeeastFarmer]

I think that makes total sense.  In an urban setting, it's called infill. You want to maximize the space you have infrastructure for before building way out. 

Action Zone-doesnt need to be expanded, but needs to be more effciently utilized.  And it needs a major overhaul.  I could see that coming in the next few years, maybe reverting back to an Adventure Village (without animals) theme.  Lots of space to work with as it exists, and if older assets are removed, even more possibilities.  

Vortex spot-self explanatory.

Path from behind Junkyard Coaster to Eiffel Tower--endless possiblites.

The only need to exapnsion I could see, and this is years down the road, is Area 72.  It needs more than 2 coasters, two tiny restrooms and a tiny food stand.  But they have the rest of the Firehawk plot and feasibly, a connection path between Adventure Port and where float staging area is.    Also, it would be neat to get a nature trail back in Rivertown, but I dont really see that as an expansion.  And it would be a logisitcal challenge, but I am sure they can use the experience they gained with Dinosaurs Alive!

 

[PKIDelirium]

Cedar Fair is good at it because, well, you know that park up north? Can't build in a lake.

Lots of available land within the existing developed boundary of KI, including for Soak City.

[CorkscrewMcPuke]

31 minutes ago, PKIDelirium said:

Can't build in a lake.

Would be pretty baller though, you gotta admit.

[Buckeye Brad]

Very interesting points.

My RollerCoasterTycoon brain likes likes to expand beyond every border, but I get the reasons to expand inward or simply replace existing rides.

Any actual expansion does require some amount of ongoing maintenance. Every new ride built, without removing an older ride, requires more employee hours to operate and maintain. I’d love if Orion went out and buzzed the Little Miami River, but all that infrastructure in the woods has an environmental impact.

As attractions like The Bat, Timberwolf, Congo Falls, Invertigo, and Backlot age out, plus The Vortex plot, and all the grass around the D’back station, I can see decades of “inward expansion” without ever having look outward.

My guess is that KI is pretty close to where Cedar Fair wants it to be size and # of attraction wise, with only modest actual “expansion” decade to decade.

Thought experiment: Pretend that steel coasters like Screamin’ Demon, the Original Bat, King Cobra, Firehawk, and Vortex had 100+ year “service lives” and no issues maintenance and with getting replacement parts.

Now consider that KI still wants to add 2-3 hot and new coasters per decade to satisfy the market.

At some point you have 30+ coasters, which is fun for us, but an ever growing burden to operate and maintain. And the bigger the park, the greater risk of losing $ when weather is bad on the next pandemic hits.

Take it further: imagine if KI expanded like crazy and added world’s biggest and best attractions every year. Would the potential attendance and revenue increase come close to justifying it? Maybe in Orlando or Dubai, but not likely in Cincinnati.

In the first few decades of KI, more aggressive expansion made sense. But now as a “mature” seasonal park in the Midwest, it’s probably a “slow and steady wins the race” mentality. 

Cedar Point expands inward because Lake Erie prevents otherwise. But it’s likely that even if they magically had more land, they would not be rushing to expand it too quickly.

[WoodVengeance]

Maybe a better term would be renovation, not expansion.

[silver2005]

2 hours ago, PKIDelirium said:

Cedar Fair is good at it because, well, you know that park up north? Can't build in a lake.

Lots of available land within the existing developed boundary of KI, including for Soak City.

Also that park in SoCal.  

[CoastersRZ]

Keep in mind that Cedar Point has hotel rooms to fill up that can generate additional revenue.  Kings Island doesn`t have that for Cedar Fair.  And to the point of employee hours, yes, I am sure they have an ideal amount of attractions they want.  As others have mentioned, the more employees to run the park, the higher the risk of increased expenses and lack of revenue (lower margins) on bad weather days.

[Rivertown Rider]

Definitely agree with a lot of what has been said.  There are plenty of places in the park they can use existing land more efficiently.  

Using the Timberwolf spot or the Invertigo spot for a new coaster would be a much better use of that land.

There is also the big tan box spot as well in addition to The Vortex spot.

[LuckyluvsKI]

19 hours ago, silver2005 said:

Also that park in SoCal.  

Knotts?  Id hate KI to become like that too compact and packing in the people (because $$) makes for a very miserable day (we also were dumb going on veterans day but didn't have much choice- since paying full price we thought having more hours 9am-10pm was better value than if we had gone the wed when it was only 10-6pm-live and learn).  its fine to expand within but they need to add facilities (bathrooms/places to sit and pathways to go along with the crowds brought with the new rides etc.  Knotts doesn't even flow well from one area to the next, it was hard to get around to the different areas and the app map was confusing to navigate,  because of expansion within without adding accommodating extra paths etc.  its competitor (disneyland) is also land locked but they apparently do well with forward thinking and crowded as it was everything flowed and there was a big difference in enjoyment.  

I can see though KI trying to not expand too far out with all the encroaching housing developments too and trying to not **** them off that they raise more of a stink than they already do. (even though it's their fault they chose to build there)  and they are going to do as much as they can as cost effective as possible for the shareholder profit margin   

 

[Klabergian Empire]

Another point to consider.

Amusement parks have to make so much money per square acre (essentially) in order to not just be profitable, but also stay in business. A big factor that contributes to rides coming/leaving is ridership. High ridership means that, more or less, the park is selling more in tickets and/or passes and it can afford to maintain and operate the ride, which also means more money for the park. Therefore, it doesn't make a whole 'lotta sense to keep a ride around with pretty low ridership, because then that would mean that the park would be paying more to run/maintain and operate the ride than the ride is pulling in riders and revenue. 

With this in mind, park expansions, for the most part, only make sense if it benefits the park business-wise. With Kings Island creating Adventure Port and adding two new flat rides, the park is essentially taking a gamble. Betting that the money spent on the cost of the rides, construction and other work needed to be done for Adventure Port, and the cost of maintaining and operating the rides will be balanced if not outweighed by their profits for the 2023 season. Granted, I think we all agree that this is a pretty small gamble and that this isn't gonna cause Kings Island any issues. But I think the golden rule for park expansions is the larger the expansion, the larger the business gamble you take.

[MeredithGrey]

Hey everyone!

I've watched some YouTube videos of other parks... and I had no idea how different Kings Island was in terms of our spacing/green space...

some other parks - like Hershey Park - have their rides, etc. packed so tightly together... or a ride is so close to the expressway... but Kings Island is to me, visually, like a breath of fresh air compared to those spaces

That feature is one of the things that I truly love about Kings Island - all the green space that we have makes KI a truly remarkable place - and it gives me that relaxed feeling - that feeling that I can just breathe - when I start walking through the park. I hope that makes sense! 

[SonofBaconator]

I’ve spoken about underutilized plots of land on here before. In general, I think the park had does a really good job of placing it’s attractions within the past decade. 
 

while on the subject of utilizing underutilize plots of land. I think that the Backlot Stunt Coaster land is prime real estate that I think the park will eventually capitalize on in the coming years. I think that whole Vortex back area will be re-organized to allow for traffic to follow a little better. While the antique autos are great, I am not entirely a fan of how it jets out into the midway, which I argue a re-organized area would fix this.

I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea to relocate Shake Rattle and roll to the green space that surrounds Backlot Stunt Coaster. This would open up the back pathway up a little bit and would allow for the park to have a little more wiggle room.

I relocated SRR in my sky ride concept where I brought back the sky right ahead and run along the coney mall Midway:

[Kenban]

What Cedar Fair has been doing is starting rides inside the existing park, the station, plaza, etc have all been on an existing midway and then the ride may or may not stay inside the existing boundaries.  

 

 

[Cle2KI]

I’ve always liked how easy it is to get from place to place at the park because of the spoke style layout. Same can’t be said for Cedar Point since it’s laid out in such a long stretch. I agree KI doesn’t need expansion. They already do a good job of loading coasters around the perimeter and then the coasters move outward, making the stations closer together. 

[CoastersRZ]

There are some areas that could use a flat ride or two within the park still.  Besides the vacant land where Vortex once sat, the land where the former Salt Water Circus (the path from the backside of the Eiffel Tower towards the Rivertown Pizza, could certainly use a flat ride of some sort.  The problem is, other than Paradise Island drink stand, there isn`t much there to bring in new revenue at existing food/merch locations.  With Adventure Port, there is the food stand that is being renovated that these two new attractions will help draw people to in order to spend money.

Additionally, while the park is adding these two new rides in Adventure Port, keep in mind that they removed a ride (albeit it an up charge attraction).  So while they are adding two new rides, from an employee labor standpoint, they are really only adding one new ride`s worth of labor.  

[SonofBaconator]

Much like how the park split up Oktoberfest and created a new section, I think the same could be done for Coney Mall:

You have Coney Mall to the back left of the Eiffel Tower, Rivertown to the back right of the Eiffel Tower, then you have a ton of potential directly behind the Eiffel Tower.

This could easily be marketed as its own section whenever Vortex gets replaced.

[BeeastFarmer]

32 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

Much like how the park split up Oktoberfest and created a new section, I think the same could be done for Coney Mall:

You have Coney Mall to the back left of the Eiffel Tower, Rivertown to the back right of the Eiffel Tower, then you have a ton of potential directly behind the Eiffel Tower.

This could easily be marketed as its own section whenever Vortex gets replaced.

I want my Parisian Promenade!