Something is Surfacing 9-19-2024

[McSalsa]

Woah. Wasn't expecting to wake up to this. I didn't even think of a Vekoma Tilt Coaster for Cedar Point's next ground up large coaster after Steel Vengeance. As others have said, the capacity is a bit worrying with only 2 trains, but otherwise this looks awesome. The story behind this ride is also a bit crazy if the rumors this went from Energylandia to Six Flags Mexico before finally ending up at Cedar Point. Though that has happened even to some of Kings Island's coasters (Orion originally supposed to go to California's Great America comes to mind). And it's a rare model- before 2025, only Gravity Max existed and that was in Taiwan, though 3 of them are looking to open in 2025. So Tilt Coasters are going from just one, to four, in a single year.

2025 is also looking very stacked for new coasters: this, Rapterra, AlpenFury, Wrath of Rakshasa, everything at Epic Universe, and the delayed 2024 rides all coming at once (plus you could maybe even still count Top Thrill 2!) is gonna be pretty darn crazy IMO.

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

Imo since Cedar Point is getting a new coaster in 25 as well as Canada's Wonderland, KD, SFGA, SFGAdv, SFOG, and SFNE opening up new coasters in 25, I personally believe the chance for 2026 being KI's year to replace Vortex is going up! Other parks I think are on the radar for 26 are Valleyfair, Carowinds, SFMM, Knotts, and SFOT. However, I could see some of those being held off until 27.  

[Bwb.32]

Just wanted to chime in, after seeing some disappointment that this addition didn't come to KI instead.

Gonna be 100% my personal thoughts here, is even if KI was offered the opportunity to have this addition, they may have denied it. The tilt feature looks like a ton of maintenance cost lol

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

38 minutes ago, Bwb.32 said:

Just wanted to chime in, after seeing some disappointment that this addition didn't come to KI instead.

Gonna be 100% my personal thoughts here, is even if KI was offered the opportunity to have this addition, they may have denied it. The tilt feature looks like a ton of maintenance cost lol

I believe KI's 2025 capital was already planned well before this even became on Cedar Point's radar as it was originally intended for Six Flags Mexico. I honestly would consider this addition Cedar Point's "Firehawk" where they got it last minute kinda like how KI got Firehawk last minute.

[WoodVengeance]

21 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

I honestly would consider this addition Cedar Point's "Firehawk" where they got it last minute kinda like how KI got Firehawk last minute.

That and Siren's Curse literally has the Firehawk paint scheme

[DoomPlague]

Looks like they're going to divert Perimeter Road for this.

It's an odd/bad fit for the park, for sure but I'll gladly ride it. I'm also going to agree with those that think this is a last minute addition to make up for 2024. 

[Kenban]

5 hours ago, DispatchMaster said:

Based on the renders, the FL queue ("que" is Spanish for "that") bypasses the standby queue and merges at the station. Though hopefully they will throttle the FL queue substantially so as to minimize the pain due to the ride's apparent low capacity.

Crazy question, if that is Fast Lane, where is the exit?  Because the renderings show low to the ground track directly behind the station.  With the parking lot, road, and Valravn, would it even be possible to exit anywhere but back to the midway?

I might be wrong but I think that second concrete path is the rides exit, and there is no Fast Lane.

[SmartCat7162]

1 hour ago, DoomPlague said:

Looks like they're going to divert Perimeter Road for this.

It's an odd/bad fit for the park, for sure but I'll gladly ride it. I'm also going to agree with those that think this is a last minute addition to make up for 2024. 

It’s not necessarily just because of 2024, it is all cause the ride was unable to be built in Mexico. But yes very last minute addition for sure.

[WoodVengeance]

I know this coaster wasn't originally intended for Cedar Point, but looking back to the surveys Cedar Fair put out a few months back, I did find it strange that Cedar Point was the only park that had the Tilt Coaster as an option on their survey (Kings Island and Carowinds did not have Tilt Coasters on their surveys). It makes me wonder if there were talks of bringing this coaster to Cedar Point back then.

[Orion742]

6 hours ago, DJSkyFoxx said:

OK first of all, call me a Vekoma-fan boi all you want, but I am STOKED to see a larger scale new age Vekoma make its way state side. Even if it was meant to go somewhere else, I could care less. I LOVE the theming. I've been enjoying the darker-omen type theming and names that Cedar Fair has been going with. Really can't wait to see what merch they come out with for this one. 

I will say that it does feel just a tad overwhelming that they had TT2 purposed to open this year and it fell incredibly short of that expectation and will essentially still be a brand new ride for next year seeing as only a handful of people in the grand scheme of things were able to ride it this year. It will be interesting to see how they market the coasters next year seeing as they will have essentially TWO new headliners for 2025 so long as TT2 gets it s*** together. 

The lower capacity will absolutely be a nightmare, lets be real. This isn't a capacity monster by any stretch of the word and CP's ops have been dismal the last few years so I don't hold out any hope that lines will move quickly. I also wonder if FL+ will have its own que or if they will in typical CP fashion with most of their coasters have it bypass 3/4 of the line just to merge with the main standby line. 

Regardless, there are absolutely no complaints here from me. This looks like a fantastically fun ride with incredible theming and I am here for it. I feel like a little kid on Christmas morning waking up to this announcement!

Now this makes me feel like the possibility of a Vekoma looper taking Vortex's plot is more possible. I know this really doesn't indicate anything, but since CF is actively working with Vekoma it makes me hopeful that KI's next big coaster could be one of their incredible new loopers. 

Personally I think this lowers our chances of a modern Vekoma thrill coaster in The Vortex plot, at least for a while. Kings Island is not going to debut a new coaster one or two years after Cedar Point got a model that will ride the same and feel almost the same. It’s like if Cedar Point built GateKeeper in 2013 and in 2014 Kings Island built a wing coaster. The park was actually looking into a wing coaster for 2014 but since Cedar Point was getting GateKeeper they decided on an invert. I do believe this makes 2026 our year with Cedar Point getting back to back major coasters and the parks not liking to do major additions in the same year. I think the park is saving The Vortex plot for something special and I can’t wait to see what it is in the future. I do think the park is going to have to get very creative with our next coaster. Should be very interesting.

[BeeastFarmer]

People who are complaining about the color...I think it fits into the theme of the shipping tower.  The track looks more rust color than red to me, but that is subjective.  Or it could be red if that was intended for the original two parks and they don't want to paint a brand new coaster. I honestly don't know the answer.

[johnjniehaus]

I agree The Vortex spot deserves a unique layout but I also think it stings to see CP get so much coaster investment while KI gets SSBR. I'm going to be blowing up on these forums though if CP gets a new coaster in the Snake River Falls plot for 2026 and they still haven't addressed The Vortex spot at KI

 

As for this possibly being a six flags Mexico project, why is CP the one benefiting from it? There's literally 40+ parks in the new combined chain and you can't tell me that CP was the ONLY park with unoccupied flat land available. They gave it to CP because they want to distract from the TT2 disaster and it's the most visited/highly profitable park in the chain since wonderland attendance has dropped. 

 

Despite my criticism, I think the ride will be fun, I love seeing another unique coaster within driving distance of Cincinnati and I think CP needs a comeback after the abysmal TT2 situation which was a huge bust and disappointment to many people. If they can distract everyone with siren's curse they can take all the time they need to figure out TT2 and get it operational without pressure from the pass holders and enthusiasts. 

[brenthodge]

2 hours ago, johnjniehaus said:

I agree The Vortex spot deserves a unique layout but I also think it stings to see CP get so much coaster investment while KI gets SSBR. I'm going to be blowing up on these forums though if CP gets a new coaster in the Snake River Falls plot for 2026 and they still haven't addressed The Vortex spot at KI

 

As for this possibly being a six flags Mexico project, why is CP the one benefiting from it? There's literally 40+ parks in the new combined chain and you can't tell me that CP was the ONLY park with unoccupied flat land available. They gave it to CP because they want to distract from the TT2 disaster and it's the most visited/highly profitable park in the chain since wonderland attendance has dropped. 

 

Despite my criticism, I think the ride will be fun, I love seeing another unique coaster within driving distance of Cincinnati and I think CP needs a comeback after the abysmal TT2 situation which was a huge bust and disappointment to many people. If they can distract everyone with siren's curse they can take all the time they need to figure out TT2 and get it operational without pressure from the pass holders and enthusiasts. 

I think you hit LOTS of nails on their head with this response. 

[SonofBaconator]

Personally I’m happy Kings Island didn’t get this. I’d rather get something ground up that was designed specifically for our park as opposed to getting a relocated project- especially if it’s to replace something as iconic as Vortex.

With 40+ properties to maintain and life being unpredictable, it’s likely that a project might be diverted to fit another park…Heck it’s already happened with Cedar Fair pre merger: CP got the Dive coaster project in 2016 instead of CWL and built Valravn, KI got the B&M project intended for CGA and built Orion. 
 

This will more than likely happen again down the road.

[Captain Nemo]

It should also be noted that the trains will feature on board audio and lighting! I had wondered when CP would get a train with lights and it’s finally happening. 

[SonofBaconator]

52 minutes ago, Captain Nemo said:

It should also be noted that the trains will feature on board audio and lighting! I had wondered when CP would get a train with lights and it’s finally happening. 

I hope that with getting this last minute coaster that they add some theming to make it more unique to CP. 
 

More parks will add coasters like this down the road so it’s always good to add theming to help us stand out.

[BeeastFarmer]

2 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

Personally I’m happy Kings Island didn’t get this. I’d rather get something ground up that was designed specifically for our park as opposed to getting a relocated project- especially if it’s to replace something as iconic as Vortex.

With 40+ properties to maintain and life being unpredictable, it’s likely that a project might be diverted to fit another park…Heck it’s already happened with Cedar Fair pre merger: CP got the Dive coaster project in 2016 instead of CWL and built Valravn, KI got the B&M project intended for CGA and built Orion. 
 

This will more than likely happen again down the road.

I've heard but can't verify an interesting example of this from the Taft days. 

Adventure Express was slated to go to Kings Dominion and The bobsled coaster was supposed to go to Kings Island.

It makes sense, because the area where the bobsled coaster is has always had a "jungle" theme, and the area where Adventure Express is would be more fitting to the bobsled/Oktoberfest.

[SonofBaconator]

15 minutes ago, BeeastFarmer said:

I've heard but can't verify an interesting example of this from the Taft days. 

Adventure Express was slated to go to Kings Dominion and The bobsled coaster was supposed to go to Kings Island.

It makes sense, because the area where the bobsled coaster is has always had a "jungle" theme, and the area where Adventure Express is would be more fitting to the bobsled/Oktoberfest.

That’s right!

Down the road, there might be a project that’s in the works for Six Flags Great Adventure but might make more sense at Carowinds. There might be money budgeted for Valleyfair and Michigan’s Adventure improvements that might be redirected towards Fiesta Texas, and so on and so forth.

I think this new, larger chain presents an interesting opportunity to see how corporate will move assets and money around to where it might make sense at the time- like giving CP a relocated coaster to makeup for Top Thrill Dragster/Top Thrill 2s downtime.

[silver2005]

Hopefully, SIX gets Vekoma to build this faster than Flash at NJFTP. 

[BeeastFarmer]

17 minutes ago, silver2005 said:

Hopefully, SIX gets Vekoma to build this faster than Flash at NJFTP. 

I don't think Vekoma builds the coasters. They design and provide the support. The park hires all the work out. So Six Flags probably would go with longer timelines to get projects open to spread the money out over a longer time period.

[Kenban]

4 hours ago, Captain Nemo said:

It should also be noted that the trains will feature on board audio and lighting! I had wondered when CP would get a train with lights and it’s finally happening. 

The park already has a coaster with onboard lighting, GateKeeper.  There are lights on both sides of every row, and the eyes on the front of the train.

[DispatchMaster]

16 hours ago, Kenban said:

Crazy question, if that is Fast Lane, where is the exit?

It's just not yet included in any renders. Maybe because they don't yet know exactly how it'll be routed, and/or because it's an unimportant detail in terms of announcing and marketing the new ride.

14 hours ago, johnjniehaus said:

They gave it to CP because they want to distract from the TT2 disaster

What does this even mean? Distract who? Is revenue down due to the so-called "TT2 disaster"? Is attendance down at CP due to the "TTD disaster" rather than any number of other uncontrollable factors?

You're being needlessly emotional about what was a pragmatic, unemotional business decision. It probably came down to "hey, we have this coaster that we've already purchased, and we need a flat plot of unoccupied land that's large enough and provides access from the park perimeter to support uninterrupted construction during the season, since we'll be getting a late start on construction. What parks meet those characteristics?"

[SonofBaconator]

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

What does this even mean? Distract who? Is revenue down due to the so-called "TT2 disaster"? Is attendance down at CP due to the "TTD disaster" rather than any number of other uncontrollable factors?

 

From a PR standpoint, I don’t think the word “disaster” is inappropriate. The ride was SBNO for a while and when it finally reopened under a new design, it closed again shortly after. It doesn’t matter how much of it was “in their control“or not, it’s about responding to issues that appear and using different solutions

[johnjniehaus]

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

What does this even mean? Distract who? Is revenue down due to the so-called "TT2 disaster"? Is attendance down at CP due to the "TTD disaster" rather than any number of other uncontrollable factors?

I'm not looking to argue about this. Attendance is not down and if I had to guess neither is profits but did the failure of Son of Beast cost KI attendance or profits? As far as I know it did not because people do not go to a major park for just one rollercoaster. Did the original Bat cost KI attendance or profits? I'm not sure that it did but you know what both rides did was give the park bad press coverage. Instead of getting good press about how great of a ride TT2 was/is, the park continued to get bad press all summer long and again at the end of the season due the announcement that I would not reopen this year. Sirens Curse can easily distract guests and make them feel like there is a new coaster to ride while also giving the park good press and distracting from the fact that TT2 still might not be open for opening day in 2025. So by opening a new coaster, instead of the headlines being "Top Thrill 2 not ready for opening day - remains closed" the headlines will be "Cedar Point opens record breaking tilt coaster"

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

You're being needlessly emotional about what was a pragmatic, unemotional business decision. It probably came down to "hey, we have this coaster that we've already purchased, and we need a flat plot of unoccupied land that's large enough and provides access from the park perimeter to support uninterrupted construction during the season, since we'll be getting a late start on construction. What parks meet those characteristics?"

Again I do not wish to argue here but I think it's rather bold to call someone needlessly emotional. I can make the case for a logical business decision to give a small compact coaster to Valleyfair, a park that has a nice plot of land formerly occupied by Dinosaurs Alive and a park that has only one coaster that goes upside down (a very small arrow looper).A park that has not received a new coaster for a very long time. To say that CP got the project because they were the only park that has available land doesn't make sense to me because there are 40+ properties in the chain. How could CP be the ONLY park with a relatively small plot of available flat land? And furthermore we know that they can slightly alter projects to fit a park when a coaster project is relocated. Last time I checked CGA was supposed to get a hyper coaster and it was slightly redesigned to fit the KI terrain making it a giga coaster. 

I just want to say everyone is entitled to their opinions but I personally cannot see where TT2 played zero factor in this decision. It is a smart business decision to distract fans and the press. It's a smart decision to give your attendees a new hopefully reliable rollercoaster after the previous one failed to deliver. It's a smart decision to have a new exciting project that will make people want to buy season passes. For example, I went to CP this summer, my family refused to go because TT2 was closed. Now that CP announced Siren's Curse they are saying they are going next year and might not even buy KI passes. I asked about TT2 and that was an afterthought to the fact CP has a new rollercoaster that "looks really good"

This didn't happen to me personally but I had a friend who was driving up to Sandusky when they made the announcement that TT2 was closed and he had already invested all sorts of money into the trip both in travel expenses and hotels. I think he'd have a right to be "needlessly emotional" about the fact TT2 closed a day before he got up there to ride it and the fact that it remained closed the ENTIRE season so no matter how many times he visited or went back to CP it was not going to be open. As for myself, am I happy it was open for 2 weeks and then closed the rest of the season? No I'm not happy about it but I understand that it's not in anyone's control that the ride had a design flaw that they haven't been able to sort out. However to say this isn't a disaster? I think most people would consider Son of Beast and the Original Bat at KI failures at a minimum if not disasters and based on what I know, the original Bat managed to operate more than 2 weeks during its opening season and is still considered one of the bigger fails in KI history and Arrow Dynamics history. 

[johnjniehaus]

9 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said:

Adventure Express was slated to go to Kings Dominion and The bobsled coaster was supposed to go to Kings Island.

It makes sense, because the area where the bobsled coaster is has always had a "jungle" theme, and the area where Adventure Express is would be more fitting to the bobsled/Oktoberfest.

That is very interesting! I had never heard that but it makes a lot of sense. Does anyone know why the coasters were switched? I'm genuinely curious now 

[DispatchMaster]

55 minutes ago, johnjniehaus said:

Instead of getting good press about how great of a ride TT2 was/is, the park continued to get bad press all summer long and again at the end of the season due the announcement that I would not reopen this year.

I think you may be overestimating the amount of press coverage dedicated to regional amusement parks, and as extension the impact of that press coverage on the bottom line. Is there some impact? Sure, of course. But is there enough of an impact to justify a multi-million dollar investment as a "distraction"?

A common theme among enthusiasts is that they wildly overestimate the level to which anyone outside this weird community cares about this stuff. Your friend is a good example of this, I think. I sympathize with his plight, but the percentage of customers who would dedicate a nontrivial amount of their entertainment budget with the goal of riding a single ride rounds to zero relative to total seasonal attendance.

55 minutes ago, johnjniehaus said:

How could CP be the ONLY park with a relatively small plot of available flat land?

I'm not suggesting that was the only factor. I'm saying it may well have been one of many key factors. If it's true that this was the Energylandia-SF Mexico model, the coaster has already been designed and manufactured, and therefore there were rigid constraints on where this could be installed. Sure, KI could have filled in & leveled The Vortex plot, or another park could have relocated existing rides and infrastructure to accommodate it, etc., but all of that of course carries cost. The plot at CP is as shovel-ready as it gets: wide open, flat, and can be accessed directly by heavy equipment without having to travel through the park.

55 minutes ago, johnjniehaus said:

I personally cannot see where TT2 played zero factor in this decision.

I've not suggested that it played no factor whatsoever. But there's a hell of a lot of space between "played zero factor" and was necessary "to distract from the TT2 disaster". See above point about enthusiasts overestimating how much 99% of park guests know or care about this stuff.

[MysticTimberwolf]

10 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said:

I don't think Vekoma builds the coasters. They design and provide the support. The park hires all the work out. So Six Flags probably would go with longer timelines to get projects open to spread the money out over a longer time period.

According to them, Vekoma does build the coasters. They are a full-service manufacturer, they're responsible for both the design and the construction. Parks may hire other companies for specific parts of the project, like landscaping or additional theming, but Vekoma claims they handle the actual construction and installation of the ride.

(Sources on Vekoma's website)

https://www.vekoma.com/about-us

https://www.vekoma.com/company-profile

[Tr0y]

2 hours ago, DispatchMaster said:

It's just not yet included in any renders. Maybe because they don't yet know exactly how it'll be routed, and/or because it's an unimportant detail in terms of announcing and marketing the new ride.

What does this even mean? Distract who? Is revenue down due to the so-called "TT2 disaster"? Is attendance down at CP due to the "TTD disaster" rather than any number of other uncontrollable factors?

You're being needlessly emotional about what was a pragmatic, unemotional business decision. It probably came down to "hey, we have this coaster that we've already purchased, and we need a flat plot of unoccupied land that's large enough and provides access from the park perimeter to support uninterrupted construction during the season, since we'll be getting a late start on construction. What parks meet those characteristics?"

There’s a lot of coincidence going on to not think that the disastrous investment in TT2 plays some part on why this decision was made. Especially with 41 other parks to choose from.

Maybe they did not meet their expectations for hotel reservations at CP, so the decision was made to capture that loss in reservations by adding a new coaster.

Also who knows. TT2 might never reopen, what would be the outlook for the hotels next season be if TT2 never reopens?

 

[johnjniehaus]

As I said,  everyone is welcome to their opinions. I don't feel the need to debate about the reason CP is getting a new coaster next year. I have my opinion others are welcome to have theirs. You can agree, disagree, think someone is right, think they are wrong. However, I think that discussing opinions is more important on these forums than personal attacks such as labeling people as belonging to a "weird community" or responding with "you..." as if an individual person is the problem with a narrative. If I disagree with an idea I state that my opinion is different from said idea not label groups of people as weird, tell someone they personally don't understand the role of the press, or tell someone they personally are 'needlessly emotional " about some topic or issue. That's a great way to get someone to consider your position when you launch personal attacks instead of just stating a different side of an argument or issue. 

[cdubbs727]

Lol, if they can keep this and TT2 working for more than four days next season, they'll have two new roller coasters. 

Personally, I'm glad CP got this and not KI. It could be a really fun ride. I also have a hunch it's going to be more of a maintenance nightmare. KI's enhancements have really helped the park experience. I'd rather get one coaster every 5 years or so and then more additions to make the park more beautiful and enjoyable. In 10 years, we've gotten Banshee, Mystic Timbers and Orion -- all great coasters. But we've also gotten the Antique Cars, a rehab of International Street, a new mini-area and a great addition to the kids' area. It makes the park a more enjoyable place -- not just for thrill seekers, but to families. I haven't been to CP in awhile, but everyone I've talked to said the park's become a nightmare of closures, long lines and rude guests. They can have their record-breaking coasters. Even though CP is the closer park for us, we're happy to consider KI our home park.