Six Flags and Cedar Fair Merge

[SonofBaconator]

46 minutes ago, MisterSG1 said:

If the Looney Tunes are dated, does this mean the classic shorts made over at Disney, starring the character we all know are dated as well. Think about it, just hearing the word "Disney" makes you think of a certain character does it not?

I argue their dated because a lot of the elements that they feature are not included in today’s television. You can’t show Elmer Fudd trying to shoot Bugs Bunny anymore, or Wiley coyote getting flattened like a pancake, etc. I think a lot of the elements that made the Looney Tunes memorable has since faded where Peanuts has stayed pretty consistent. From a family friendly aspect, Peanuts are a superior IP than Looney Tunes.

[MisterSG1]

7 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

I argue their dated because a lot of the elements that they feature are not included in today’s television. You can’t show Elmer Fudd trying to shoot Bugs Bunny anymore, or Wiley coyote getting flattened like a pancake, etc. I think a lot of the elements that made the Looney Tunes memorable has since faded where Peanuts has stayed pretty consistent. From a family friendly aspect, Peanuts are a superior IP than Looney Tunes.

I don't want to delve into politics, but you can't shield kids from reality. Looney Tunes are good fun, but people like Elmer Fudd, trying to hunt the rabbit indeed exist. Just as Sylvester wanting to eat Tweety. In reality, hunters do exist, and there are predators and prey. Trying to shield kids from the world is a dumb proposition, and obviously doesn't seem to be working.

I mean back when Bugs & Tweety aired, you didn't see kids committing mass shootings did you?

As someone else said regarding Peanuts, how often do you really see them other than that Christmas special? Wonderland has a ride themed after the Halloween special because that's kind of the relevance they have, only specials.

[shark6495]

39 minutes ago, MisterSG1 said:

Which Space Jam are we talking about? That newer one or the one I grew up with Michael Jordan in 1996.

As for the Big Three, I honestly didn't know who Wonder Woman was growing up, and I still don't know what her superpower is.

Batman took a dark turn since 1989, I mean that animated series that starts with a bank robbery in the intro was a show I didn't like much as a kid for its darkness. Superman has always seemed lame to be honest, this is in contrast to Spider-Man or the X-Men.

I mean seriously, Halloween was 2 nights ago, how many Batmen or Supermen showed up at your door, compared to how many Spider-Men. That should settle it right there.

The Lebron one. The one that is on HBO Max featuring video game characters. 
 

as for the big three, you’ve got two cartoons out right now doing the cradle to adulthood (bat wheels and teen titans go).  You’ve got the new CW Superman show in it’s like 5th season. Plus movies (the super pet movie, the live actions, etc)
 

 

the conversation isn’t “is spiderman more popular”, he’s always been. But to say DC is not popular is arguing in bad faith. Just because you don’t watch doesn’t mean there isn’t shows out there. 

[SonofBaconator]

16 minutes ago, shark6495 said:

But to say DC is not popular is arguing in bad faith. Just because you don’t watch doesn’t mean there isn’t shows out there.

I don’t think it isn’t popular, I just don’t think it’s right for us. If they had a whole park themed to Batman: The Animated Series- I’d be there. The modern DC films just don’t seem to be getting any footing and I think that can hurt a brand like Six Flags/ Cedar Fair. I’m not a fan of established IPs in most parks anyway unless it’s in a kids area, I favor originality.

[shark6495]

8 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

I don’t think it isn’t popular, I just don’t think it’s right for us. If they had a whole park themed to Batman: The Animated Series- I’d be there. The modern DC films just don’t seem to be getting any footing and I think that can hurt a brand like Six Flags/ Cedar Fair. I’m not a fan of established IPs in parks anyway unless it’s in a kids area, I favor originality.

That’s a different argument and one I can understand. The person I was replying to was implying (the way I read it) that it hasn’t been popular in a long time. 
 

I personally think parks need some IP. Would I love to see HB back? Yes but that’s not realistic. Looney Tunes and DC would fit better in kid land than Peanuts (talk about dated). 
 

but if you do IP well (and not just slap paint but done well think Original Top Gun) then I’m all for it. 

[Sonofbeast2.0]

Just my two cents.

 

In terms of the Kids area, I think I would have more interest in Looney Tunes. I think it would be a fun update and change to the area. Much like how many kids know Snoopy, many kids know Bugs Bunny. It would be a change for sure but I don't think it would be bad.

 

As for DC Comics, if we got that in the park, I feel like retheming Action Zone to something around DC Comics would not be horrible. It would be the most fitting of everything else in the park. We shall see how it plays out! I am sure there was very similar talks and concerns like this back when Cedar Fair took over.

 

Do I think we will see some changes? Sure! But probably not for a couple years. The only thing I could maybe see coming the soonest is any sort of name changes like maybe Six Flags Kings Island (or something of the sort) and uniform and nametag updates. That would be my thought on changes we may see for 2024 season. 

I remain cautiously optimistic. As Barry Williams said "the future of the park could not look brighter!" I'm going to hold him to it! Haha. 

[FUN&ONLY!]

1 hour ago, Sonofbeast2.0 said:

I remain cautiously optimistic. As Barry Williams said "the future of the park could not look brighter!" I'm going to hold him to it! Haha. 

I don’t know. I think Kings Island’s future definitely looked brighter in 2022 than it has all year… especially now. All we can do is hope for the best at this point.

[Beasttamer]

I think it would be awesome to have DC themed rides at the park. The big question though, is what kind of theming do we get? If they paint The Bat black and call it Batman the ride, then it sucks, but how cool would it be to have a Batman ride with the theming of the old Batman coaster at Astroworld when it was around? While more recent rides haven't gotten that kind of love, I remain optimistic now that Cedar Fair would hav input into the theming. 

[DonHelbig]

A lot of possibilities. I wouldn't mind seeing the kids' area being revamped to Looney Tunes and Action Zone rethemed to DC. Opens up a whole new line of merchandise opportunities. 

[DoomPlague]

The idea that this somehow means The Beast is getting removed or RMCd is just irrational hysterics. Even if Six Flags were taking over the park (they aren't), that would be super unlikely.

Anyways, I would prefer Hanna Barbara back in the kids area but I would be okay with Looney Tunes. Is anyone particularly attached to Peanuts? I know kids aren't.

I don't want to see DC theming at KI but it might be preferable to Action Zone just staying the generic area it is now (as long as Banshee isn't rethemed).

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

Ik everyone wants Phantom Theater to return to Boo Blasters, but with these new IP possibilities, maybe we see Scooby Doo and the Haunted Castle return. The stuff is still there, all they need to do is update it to make it more modern and make the guns work again! I'm a 2000s baby so my young child memory is the Scooby Doo dark ride. I also hope we see the Crypt building reused. 

[Tr0y]

41 minutes ago, DonHelbig said:

A lot of possibilities. I wouldn't mind seeing the kids' area being revamped to Looney Tunes and Action Zone rethemed to DC. Opens up a whole new line of merchandise opportunities. 

Future topic for the Attractions Group? 

[johnjniehaus]

The only IP I would want to see is a return of Hanna Barbara to kiddy land. I have a real soft spot for Looney Tunes and Peanuts because I watched VHS tapes of both as a kid but Hanna Barbara would be really cute and would pull in nostalgia like crazy for some older park guests. My grandparents still say they will meet us in Hanna Barbara Land...

[BoddaH1994]

29 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

Future topic for the Attractions Group? 

Oh yes. 

[Oldiesmann]

7 hours ago, TheRickster said:

Dude this reports like Six Flags gonna be going through chapter 11 and liquidating real estate if CF does not merge.

 

Also yeah that company owns 3% of SF stock. They also in a 12/2022 article talk about wanting the chain to sell off land and believe the land is worth more than the company.

According to this article from financial site Seeking Alpha says they owned "a stake of just over 1%" as of June. I don't follow this stuff though so maybe they owned more at one time. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/six-flags-holder-land-andamp-building-plans-to-vote-again-cedar-fair-deal/ar-AA1jihTm

 

[shadow2k3]

I'm not especially worried about the future of KI with this merger, but I am worried about the smaller parks coming in from both sides getting lost in the shuffle. Maybe even getting sold off or ending up like Geauga Lake or something.

SIX's track record with smaller parks isn't exactly stellar, and I'm worried parks like Dorney or Michigan's Adventure will be forgotten in the process. Bigger parks like Cedar Point, SFMM, and KI should be fine given their respective footholds. But I guess the phrase "merger of equals" may bring some cross-pollination in terms of better operations across the chain.

We shall see.

[teenageninja]

9 hours ago, BoddaH1994 said:

Oh yes. 

Please have me and Ronny on to discuss our history of Kings Island if Six Flags bought them instead!

[TheRickster]

6 minutes ago, teenageninja said:

Please have me and Ronny on to discuss our history of Kings Island if Six Flags bought them instead!

This is the way. They're experts on the subject. 

[BoddaH1994]

10 minutes ago, teenageninja said:

Please have me and Ronny on to discuss our history of Kings Island if Six Flags bought them instead!

Alternative history? Sweet! 

[jzarley]

I think it is really difficult now to keep a kids’ area that is relevant and constantly popular today. There are so many sources of content that the current “big thing” is frequently changing. Right now I think Bluey is the in thing for the preschool demo (unless he’s been replaced by something newer now too), a few years ago it was Peppa Pig, before that something else. The earlier IP (HB, Looney Tunes, etc.) was able to stay relevant a lot longer because there weren’t limitless replacements from hundreds of sources constantly in the pipeline.

I’m not sure how the DC IP agreement with Six Flags is structured, but typically these IP agreements are not “blanket” (meaning you can’t use the IP as much as you want, anyway you want)—instead it’s typically by individual use case. If that’s the case here, would it make financial sense to convert The Bat to Batman if there’s an incremental IP cost (plus the capital cost of converting the ride) involved? I’m not sure the cost of a change like that would result in a revenue boost that would justify it (especially once people realized “oh, it’s still just Top Gun” ;-))

[DonHelbig]

10 hours ago, Tr0y said:

Future topic for the Attractions Group? 

The future is next week on The Attractions Group Podcast. 

[KIBeast]

2 hours ago, shadow2k3 said:

I'm not especially worried about the future of KI with this merger, but I am worried about the smaller parks coming in from both sides getting lost in the shuffle. Maybe even getting sold off or ending up like Geauga Lake or something.

SIX's track record with smaller parks isn't exactly stellar, and I'm worried parks like Dorney or Michigan's Adventure will be forgotten in the process. Bigger parks like Cedar Point, SFMM, and KI should be fine given their respective footholds. But I guess the phrase "merger of equals" may bring some cross-pollination in terms of better operations across the chain.

We shall see.

Contrary to popular belief, Michigan's Adventure is quite profitable. Possibly some of the less profitable parks could be sold off. Smaller size does not always equal less profitable.

[DiamondbackFan]

1 hour ago, jzarley said:

I’m not sure how the DC IP agreement with Six Flags is structured, but typically these IP agreements are not “blanket” (meaning you can’t use the IP as much as you want, anyway you want)—instead it’s typically by individual use case. If that’s the case here, would it make financial sense to convert The Bat to Batman if there’s an incremental IP cost (plus the capital cost of converting the ride) involved? I’m not sure the cost of a change like that would result in a revenue boost that would justify it (especially once people realized “oh, it’s still just Top Gun” ;-))

From the Six Flags annual report:

"Licenses

We hold exclusive long-term licenses of the Warner Bros. and DC Comics animated characters at our theme parks throughout the U.S. (except for the Las Vegas metropolitan area), Canada, Mexico and certain other countries. In particular, our license agreements entitle us to use, subject to customary approval rights of Warner Bros. and, in limited circumstances, approval rights of certain third parties, all animated, cartoon and comic book characters that Warner Bros. and DC Comics have the right to license, including Batman, The Joker, Superman, Wonder Woman, The Flash, Green Lantern, Harley Quinn, Aquaman, Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Tweety Bird and Yosemite Sam. The licenses include the right to sell merchandise using the characters and to use the characters in our advertising, as walk-around characters and in theming for rides, attractions and retail outlets. In addition to annual license fees, we are required to pay a royalty fee on any merchandise manufactured by or for us and sold that use the licensed characters. Warner Bros. has the right to terminate the license agreements under certain circumstances, including if any persons involved in the movie or television industries obtain control of us or, in the case of Warner Bros., upon a default under the Subordinated Indemnity Agreement."

"License Agreements

We are party to a license agreement pursuant to which we have the exclusive right on a long-term basis to theme park use in the United States and Canada (excluding the Las Vegas, Nevada metropolitan area) of all animated, cartoon and comic book characters that Warner Bros. and DC Comics have the right to license for such use. The term of the agreement expires in 2053. The license fee is payable on a per-theme park basis, and is subject to CPI increases and scheduled adjustments, including periodic market resets.

In November 1999, we entered into license agreements pursuant to which we have the exclusive right on a longterm basis to parks use in Europe, Central and South America of all animated, cartoon and comic book characters that Warner Bros. and DC Comics have the right to license for such use. Under such agreements, the license fee is based on specified percentages of the gross revenues of the applicable parks."

https://investors.sixflags.com/~/media/Files/S/Sixflags-IR-V2/documents/annual-reports/ny20007291x4-ars-six-flags-edgar-asfiled.pdf

[Benjamin22]

Okay so after thinking this over for a bit here are my overall thoughts on what the next 5 years will likely look like:

• I don't think we're going to see any dramatic changes the first 2ish years as most of the companies efforts will be spent on consolidating corporate operations. I.e only having one pass system, consolidating park apps, switching over all of the parks to a single IT system, consolidating account ect. This is where most of the cost savings from the merger will be coming from. I'd assume that they'll be no major new rides the next two years UNLESS they're already being planned (I.e Canada's wonderland B&M).
• The price of season passes will not change that much. People have this very strong misconception that regional parks compete against other regional parks,  this isn't really true for the most. Most regional parks competition is local entertainment options. Would I rather go to haunt or a night out in OTR etc that kind of thing. The chains are already struggling to attract customers from pre covid, raising prices will only turn more people away. 
• For the next 4-5 years I expect most of the Capex to be focused on the Six Flags chain. We saw this with the Paramount Parks deal where the Paramount Parks tended to get the major Capex (The 3 B&M hypers, KD Giga etc) for the first few years after the merger. Although I expect most of these investments to be in a little "boring" but important areas such as improving food operations. Food and seasonal events have been a MAJOR part of Cedar Fairs strategy so I expect them to immediately turn their focus on investing in these areas for the Six Flags Parks. 
• I think they'll be a reevaluation in what parks are getting the major CAPEX. It's been no secret that in the past few years parks like Carowinds & Canadas Wonderland have been the focus for the chain. However given their struggles this season I can easily see Cedar Fair Focusing their attention on some of the newer Six Flags parks that they view to have more potential. I can easily see large investments coming to some of the southern parks who might actually be able to succeed year around while Carowinds failed to do so. For parks like KI, CP & Knott's I don't see the investment strategy changing all that much long term, just that for the next few years I foresee smaller then we're used to investments.

Overall this deal makes sense and I don't think it'll be the end of the world. The biggest thing Im curious about is the chains integration of the DC theme. Cedar Fair has emphasized themed local or unique experiences (I.e Redwood themed area for CGA, Frontier Canada) DC is very unlike that imo. It feels like cheap tacky carnival crap. My assumption is it'll be up to the parks on if they want to pull the trigger on that. Another big thing I wonder is how much autonomy the parks will be getting. Under current Cedar Fair operations large parks like KI, CP etc got a lot of leeway with how their ran their parks and what types of investments they're looking for. I can see both the benefits and the downsides to this approach for this new larger mega chain. 

[IndyGuy4KI]

Can anyone make sense out of this CF news released this morning called: Cedar Fair Announces Consent Solicitation for its Outstanding Notes?

https://www.cedarfair.com/news

Quote

Cedar Fair, L.P. (NYSE: FUN) (the “Company”), a leader in regional amusement parks, water parks, and immersive entertainment, together with its wholly owned subsidiaries as co-issuers (together with the Company, the “Co-Issuers”), today announced a solicitation of consents (“Consent Solicitation”) from the holders (the “Holders”) of its 5.375% Senior Notes due 2027 (the “2027 Notes”), 5.250% Senior Notes due 2029 (the “2029 Notes”), 5.500% Senior Secured Notes due 2025 (the “2025 Notes”) and 6.500% Senior Notes due 2028 (the “2028 Notes” and, together with the 2027 Notes, the 2029 Notes and the 2025 Notes, the “Notes”) commencing on November 3, 2023 for the adoption of certain proposed amendments described below (the “Proposed Amendments”) to the indentures governing the Notes (the “Indentures”).

 

[DoomPlague]

1 hour ago, jzarley said:

I think it is really difficult now to keep a kids’ area that is relevant and constantly popular today. There are so many sources of content that the current “big thing” is frequently changing. Right now I think Bluey is the in thing for the preschool demo (unless he’s been replaced by something newer now too), a few years ago it was Peppa Pig, before that something else. The earlier IP (HB, Looney Tunes, etc.) was able to stay relevant a lot longer because there weren’t limitless replacements from hundreds of sources constantly in the pipeline.

I’m not sure how the DC IP agreement with Six Flags is structured, but typically these IP agreements are not “blanket” (meaning you can’t use the IP as much as you want, anyway you want)—instead it’s typically by individual use case. If that’s the case here, would it make financial sense to convert The Bat to Batman if there’s an incremental IP cost (plus the capital cost of converting the ride) involved? I’m not sure the cost of a change like that would result in a revenue boost that would justify it (especially once people realized “oh, it’s still just Top Gun” ;-))

You're definitely right about kids IPs. These days you have so many streaming options, many with exclusive IPs. But "back in the day" everyone was exposed to Disney, Looney Tunes, HB, and even Nickelodeon because they dominated the airwaves/cable.

Too bad Universal has Nintendo wrapped up because that's pretty universal and enduring.

[disco2000]

5 minutes ago, KIBeast said:

Contrary to popular belief, Michigan's Adventure is quite profitable. Possibly some of the less profitable parks could be sold off. Smaller size does not always equal less profitable.

While that may be true, once a corporation gets too big, the bean counters start to use different metrics.

They may decide on a gross revenue number threshold and get rid of any park under that number regardless of their profitability margin.

Many corporations get rid of product lines that are no longer "a strategic fit" but are very profitable.

Look at P&G as an example.  Over the last 10 years, they sold off over half of their brands, many of them profitable product lines, as they were no longer a strategic fit moving forward - AKA the annual revenue was below an arbitrarily set threshold.

Duracell is a $2Billion/year unit that is very profitable that P&G sold off.  If it wasn't, Warren Buffet wouldn't have bought it.

GE is another.  They sold off their profitable appliance division many years ago.  So while you can still buy a GE appliance, it is actually built by someone else and the terms of the sale allowed them to continue to use the GE name for X number of years.  GE is currently going through another restructuring and will be selling off their profitable healthcare line.

So just because a smaller park enjoys some of the highest profit margins in the company doesn't make it immune to being sold off or otherwise liquidated.

[Benjamin22]

2 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

GE is another.  They sold off their profitable appliance division many years ago.  So while you can still buy a GE appliance, it is actually built by someone else and the terms of the sale allowed them to continue to use the GE name for X number of years.  GE is currently going through another restructuring and will be selling off their profitable healthcare line.

TBF GE was a total house of cards that NEVER deserved the reputation it had in the late 90's and early 2000s. But yes I agree, I foresee there to potentially be some issues trying to steer this larger company. One of the easiest ways to get around this will be to get rid of assets that don't align with the companies future.

[disco2000]

Just now, Benjamin22 said:

TBF GE was a total house of cards that NEVER deserved the reputation it had in the late 90's and early 2000s. But yes I agree, I foresee there to potentially be some issues trying to steer this larger company. One of the easiest ways to get around this will be to get rid of assets that don't align with the companies future.

Yeah and we see companies go thru this cycle - they decide to diversify in the event one sector is down, hopefully another sector is up.  As such GE was involved in lots of business sectors.

GE's current direction appears to be to focus on aviation only.  And that will work until it doesn't, and then they restart the cycle of venturing out into other sectors again LOL.

[KIghostguy]

I thought this was an interesting Richard Zimmerman quote from the conference call transcript at https://seekingalpha.com/article/4647047-cedar-fair-l-p-fun-six-flags-mergers-of-equals-conference-transcript.

"One of the things that excites me is somebody who came into the Cedar Fair organization from the Paramount side understanding the movie studio and the drive for exploiting IP and enhancing that along with Six Flags. Looking at the Warner Brothers, we have – as we have said on prepared remarks, really three powerful IPs that we can think about how best fit within the portfolio Peanuts, DC Comics and of course the Warner Brothers connection. I am so excited to think about how we could potentially roll out and enhance the guest experience in all our regions and rethink how we use IP. IP is incredibly important, differentiator in the minds of our consumers and I think our ability to unlock how we look at that in the future gets me really excited and I know for our internal design staff on both sides. As we think about how to plot and plan the guest experience going forward, I think our challenge is working close – is to work more closely with the holders of the IP and think about how we might both benefit from a closer association."

Unfortunately, this seems like we will likely see DC implemented eventually at the legacy Cedar Fair parks.