Six Flags and Cedar Fair Merge

[Orion742]

9 hours ago, Captain Nemo said:

So my biggest question now is… Six Flags Qiddiya? Clearly it’s happening but it wasn’t featured on the released map of properties.

The topic of that park creates a lot of questions.

It would give Cedar Fair the world’s tallest coaster once again.

[DiamondbackFan]

5 hours ago, jzarley said:

Is it SF owned/developed or is it owned by a 3rd party that is licensing the Six Flags name?
The new SeaWorld “park” (most of it is indoors) in Abu Dhabi is like that—a third party built, owns and operates it, but SEAS licensed their brand and provided consulting during development. If that’s the same scenario in Qiddiya there’s probably no reason for it not to move forward with the merger

It is owned/developed by the Saudi Investment Fund (unlimited government money).  Six Flags is licensing their brand to the park.

[Tr0y]

23 hours ago, KIghostguy said:

I thought this was an interesting Richard Zimmerman quote from the conference call transcript at https://seekingalpha.com/article/4647047-cedar-fair-l-p-fun-six-flags-mergers-of-equals-conference-transcript.

"One of the things that excites me is somebody who came into the Cedar Fair organization from the Paramount side understanding the movie studio and the drive for exploiting IP and enhancing that along with Six Flags. Looking at the Warner Brothers, we have – as we have said on prepared remarks, really three powerful IPs that we can think about how best fit within the portfolio Peanuts, DC Comics and of course the Warner Brothers connection. I am so excited to think about how we could potentially roll out and enhance the guest experience in all our regions and rethink how we use IP. IP is incredibly important, differentiator in the minds of our consumers and I think our ability to unlock how we look at that in the future gets me really excited and I know for our internal design staff on both sides. As we think about how to plot and plan the guest experience going forward, I think our challenge is working close – is to work more closely with the holders of the IP and think about how we might both benefit from a closer association."

Unfortunately, this seems like we will likely see DC implemented eventually at the legacy Cedar Fair parks.

I don’t think having DC integrated at Kings Island is a bad thing. 

The only bad that can come from this, is if they did what Paramount did and plop themed rides down in areas it doesn’t fit.

Action Zone is a perfect candidate for a DC re theme. That area has no theming cohesion, and would benefit greatly from such.

Like others have said in regards to Action Zone, it really can’t be worse.

[Joshua]

If rides are indeed themed to DC, Looney Tunes and other WB properties then I hope they put some thought into the theming and don't simply paint a ride black and green and name it "The Matrix" without atmosphere, immersion or the tiniest bit of decor to show for it. 

[KI Fan75]

I just hope they keep the themes and lands as is and continue to develop them in the parks that already have them instead of just dropping attractions, rides, and names wherever in the park that don’t match with any theme of the area they are in. 

[Benjamin22]

42 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

I don’t think having DC integrated at Kings Island is a bad thing. 

The only bad that can come from this, is if they did what Paramount did and plop themed rides down in areas it doesn’t fit.

Action Zone is a perfect candidate for a DC re theme. That area has no theming cohesion, and would benefit greatly from such.

Like others have said in regards to Action Zone, it really can’t be worse.

Renaming Banshee to some tacky DC name would make the area worse imo.

[jsus]

7 hours ago, jzarley said:

Is it SF owned/developed or is it owned by a 3rd party that is licensing the Six Flags name?
The new SeaWorld “park” (most of it is indoors) in Abu Dhabi is like that—a third party built, owns and operates it, but SEAS licensed their brand and provided consulting during development. If that’s the same scenario in Qiddiya there’s probably no reason for it not to move forward with the merger

The Saudi PIF will be the owner and (apparently) operator of the property.  It will be under a license agreement with the SIX brand, and the park is said to be designed/developed by SIX.  So the layout, rides, theme, etc. will be of SIX's design, but the park will be owned and operated by the PIF.

As for what would become of the park under the FUN Six Flags, that remains to be seen.

Quote

Six Flags Entertainment Corporation (NYSE: SIX), the world’s largest regional theme park company, and the Public Investment Fund (PIF), Saudi Arabia’s sovereign wealth fund, today announced plans to develop a Six Flags-branded theme park in the city of Riyadh. Six Flags has entered into an arrangement with the PIF to develop, design and license the Six Flags brand for Qiddiya—Saudi Arabia’s first entertainment, sports and cultural destination—which is expected to open in 2022.

https://investors.sixflags.com/news-and-events/press-releases/2018/04-04-2018-220015471

[Tr0y]

7 hours ago, TombRaiderFTW said:

Saying nice (and truthful) things about Six Flags?! Burn the heretic! How dare you interrupt a perfectly good collective meltdown!

Listen, are there reasons to be concerned with this merger? Sure. But everyone judging this situation based on Six Flags of 20 years ago ("Everything is going to get a Six Flags name! Parking lot coasters!") hasn't been paying attention to how Six Flags has handled its most recent acquisitions and additions. And much as homestar said, I think the chain is being judged off its worst examples. The Texas parks, for example, are fantastic, as are Great America and Great Adventure (though admittedly I haven't been to the latter in 10+ years.)

Not to mention, as much damage as Bassoul has done to Six Flags's branding recently, the president is still Zimmerman and the board is still half Cedar Fair. IF people at the top are thinking about doing y'all's worst nightmares and transforming Kings Island into Six Flags America Part II: Electric Boogaloo, there are people with a lot of say who seem to understand branding better. I'm not saying that's impossible; I AM saying that y'all have a precise count on how many chickens you'll have when the eggs haven't hatched yet.

And yeah, Six Flags's FoL system is, as far as I'm concerned, objectively a better system than Fast Lane.

What has Bassoul done to ruin the Six Flags Brand? Other than trying to make it a more premium brand like Cedar Fair?

[IndyGuy4KI]

Poll ran on X. Thoughts on the results?

 

 

[standbyme]

2 hours ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

Thoughts on the results?

That all of the “I can’t wait, bring it on” & the “It’s fine” votes are from Six Flags fans. 

[Kenban]

6 hours ago, Tr0y said:

What has Bassoul done to ruin the Six Flags Brand? Other than trying to make it a more premium brand like Cedar Fair?

What he has claimed that he wanted, turning the parks into a more family friendly and premium experience is good.  But it’s going to take more than talk, they need to invest in changes.  The biggest investments were pricing and pass changes that drove away customers, reducing the crowds so that they had shorter lines.

He raised prices without actually improving the quality.  Claimed that no investment was needed for the next few years and cancelled most projects, then suddenly backtracked and had to order whatever off the shelf rides that were available.  Whatever investments they are making are opening extremely late, one of the 2023 projects announced last year just opened this weekend, when the season is basically over.  Budget cuts that including closing entire lands at parks, just wiping the rides off the map, app, and website.  Where is the live entertainment at Six Flags parks?  Cancelled Holiday in the park at 4 or 5 parks.

Those are just the things off the top of my head.  I guarantee there is more that I am not remembering.  He also made changes that are not customer facing, including firing a lot of corporate staff.

[Sixflags82]

1 hour ago, Kenban said:

What he has claimed that he wanted, turning the parks into a more family friendly and premium experience is good.  But it’s going to take more than talk, they need to invest in changes.  The biggest investments were pricing and pass changes that drove away customers, reducing the crowds so that they had shorter lines.

He raised prices without actually improving the quality.  Claimed that no investment was needed for the next few years and cancelled most projects, then suddenly backtracked and had to order whatever off the shelf rides that were available.  Whatever investments they are making are opening extremely late, one of the 2023 projects announced last year just opened this weekend, when the season is basically over.  Budget cuts that including closing entire lands at parks, just wiping the rides off the map, app, and website.  Where is the live entertainment at Six Flags parks?  Cancelled Holiday in the park at 4 or 5 parks.

Those are just the things off the top of my head.  I guarantee there is more that I am not remembering.  He also made changes that are not customer facing, including firing a lot of corporate staff.

To say Selim has done nothing but raise prices without improving quality is a straight up lie, as someone who has been going to Six Flags parks multiple times a year every year since 2018 there is a noticable difference with the quality of the parks before and after Selim, Six Flags America for example, and the one I'm most familiar with, has improved drastically under his leadership, and the new rides, such as rookie racer, that Salem has installed have looked miles better aesthetic wise compared to previous additions.

[robintodd]

14 hours ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

Poll ran on X. Thoughts on the results?

 

Actually ElToroRyan just posted a video about the merger that brings things into perspective rather nicely.  It's a MERGER.  Think of it like Sea World and Bush Gardens not Paramount and Cedar Fair, which was a purchase.  I don't see much changing in the next 2 years or so.  As far as Looney Tunes at CF parks the one I could see doing this would be Cedar Point turning one of their 3 kids areas into Looney Tunes (possibly the one on the main midway).

I think this is a much better solution than having CF get sold to another company.  Looking at the map of parks it doesn't look like there is much "competition" between SIX and CF in our market.  I'm optomistic about the change mostly because CF maintains controling interest in the stock.  It's kind of like children when a parent marries for the second time (like the movie StepBrothers).  At the beginning there is a bunch of pessimism from each side (I imagine SIX enthusiasts are having a similar reacton that we are) but at then end they will live happlily ever-after as Prestige Worldwide

[disco2000]

26 minutes ago, robintodd said:

It's kind of like children when a parent marries for the second time (like the movie StepBrothers).  At the beginning there is a bunch of pessimism from each side (I imagine SIX enthusiasts are having a similar reacton that we are) but at then end they will live happlily ever-after as Prestige Worldwide

 

Around these parts, the only reference we have of children with a parent that marries for the second time is The Brady Bunch 

[Kenban]

7 hours ago, Sixflags82 said:

To say Selim has done nothing but raise prices without improving quality is a straight up lie, as someone who has been going to Six Flags parks multiple times a year every year since 2018 there is a noticable difference with the quality of the parks before and after Selim, Six Flags America for example, and the one I'm most familiar with, has improved drastically under his leadership, and the new rides, such as rookie racer, that Salem has installed have looked miles better aesthetic wise compared to previous additions.

In my opinion it’s true in context, he took over sometime in 2021.  I am referring specifically to the 2022 season with that comment.  He made a lot of mistakes for the 2022 season which likely some could have been prevented if he had not fired so much of the corporate staff.

[SonofBaconator]

To shift discussion a bit:

Which current Six Flags park is the most like Cedar Fair?

Which current Cedar Fair park is the most like Six Flags?

[Sixflags82]

In my experience Six Flags Fiesta Texas in the park in the Legacy Six Flags chain that feels most like a Cedar Fair Park and California's Great America is the park in the Legacy Cedar Fair chain that feels most like a Six Flags park

[disco2000]

5 hours ago, Kenban said:

In my opinion it’s true in context, he took over sometime in 2021.  I am referring specifically to the 2022 season with that comment.  He made a lot of mistakes for the 2022 season which likely some could have been prevented if he had not fired so much of the corporate staff.

He said what most CEOs wouldn't publicly state...

https://abc7ny.com/six-flags-theme-park-price-increases-ceo/12138721/

[DoomPlague]

3 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

To shift discussion a bit:

Which current Six Flags park is the most like Cedar Fair?

Which current Cedar Fair park is the most like Six Flags?

I haven't been there but I've heard people compare Fiesta Texas to CF parks, though maybe just because they're impressed with Siebert's running of the park.

[BeeastFarmer]

John Mattress gives his two cents:

 

https://youtu.be/wXEI9KTCi9Y?feature=shared

[Orion-XL200]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:15 PM, DonHelbig said:

A lot of possibilities. I wouldn't mind seeing the kids' area being revamped to Looney Tunes and Action Zone rethemed to DC. Opens up a whole new line of merchandise opportunities. 

Only if they do merchandise right....the one thing I don't like about merchandise at a Six park is that there is a lack of coaster related merchandise, sure the newer rides have merch but not for long. I think parks can really learn from the merchandise department at Cedar Point, tons of coaster related merch. 

[Shawn Meyer]

I'm very skeptical about this merger. I don't want to see my favorite Park(Kings Island) have the Six flags name in front of it. I'm also worried that they'll mess up one of the Cedar Fair parks like they did with Geauga Lake. I doubt they'll mess up Kings Island because that's a crown jewel to Cedar Fair. One of their crown jewels anyway. 

[DispatchMaster]

On 11/3/2023 at 11:00 AM, disco2000 said:

I agree.  I think in the 5-10 year period, CF parks will have more of a SIX look/feel than the other way around.

Especially if WB ever figures out how to properly implement the DC line, a former Paramount person will jump on the opportunity to take full advantage of that IP as a way to prove to Paramount that it could have been done successfully.

I don't know if you're wrong, because I have zero faith in Zimmerman given his track record, but I certainly hope you're wrong.

On 11/3/2023 at 10:05 PM, KI Guy said:

Cedar Point and Kings Island have plateued on revenue except for add-on products like Fast Lane and Meal Plans.

The Paramount Park purchase was disastrous for the likes of Dorney, Valleyfair, and Michigan's Adventure. Meanwhile "the new kids on the block" Kings Island, Carowinds, and Canda's Wonderland were showered with new coasters. Even Cedar Point slowed down a little on new attractions compared to the pre-Paramount era.

CP is in no way, shape, or form "tapped out" in terms of revenue. Zimmerman's Gold Pass "strategy" was a mistake. They should never have greenlit a ~$100 season pass at a property that had healthy attendance at higher prices. 

And Michigan's Adventure is one of the most profitable properties in the portfolio in terms of margin. The reason they don't install new rides very often isn't because MA is neglected. It's because MA does excellent business as-is, and does not need more frequent investment.

And CP didn't slow down on new attraction installs because of the Paramount purchase. They slowed down on installs because the park is relatively mature in terms of their ride lineup, and because new ride installs require the removal of an existing ride, given they are constrained by maintenance capacity.

[KI Guy]

@DispatchMaster, if you go back and read my post, you'll see that I said "Kings Island is tapped out relative to large Six Flags parks." My point was that there is a whole lot more potential for large investments (to increase revenue) at the poorly utilized Six Flags parks than Kings Island.

I do think there is some valid criticism of the cheap gold pass strategy, but I wonder if the thought process was to get everyone at all price points. The more people buying the cheap gold passes (i.e. attendance) the more attractive Fast Lane becomes. Whether a more expensive gold pass would net more revenue is an unresolved question at the moment.

And I am not criticizing Cedar Fair's strategy with (small parks like) Michigan's Adventure from a business standpoint; I understand what they're doing. I'm saying that for Michigan's Adventure fans it's hard to believe Cedar Fair has invested in the park like what may have occurred had it stayed under private ownership. This is always the case with corporations and for good reasons.

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

And CP didn't slow down on new attraction installs because of the Paramount purchase. They slowed down on installs because the park is relatively mature in terms of their ride lineup, and because new ride installs require the removal of an existing ride, given they are constrained by maintenance capacity.

Yes, in other words "tapped out" relative to a Carowinds or a Kings Island. A new install is not as correlated with revenue growth at Cedar Point as it would be Carowinds. Investment goes where they believe there is potential for the largest return on investment.  I can see this same strategy taken up with the newly added large Six Flags parks.

[disco2000]

29 minutes ago, KI Guy said:

I do think there is some valid criticism of the cheap gold pass strategy, but I wonder if the thought process was to get everyone at all price points. The more people buying the cheap gold passes (i.e. attendance) the more attractive Fast Lane becomes. Whether a more expensive gold pass would net more revenue is an unresolved question at the moment.

 

But CP did not need to attract and get everyone at all price points.  

They are just about always busy.  

Even prior to them selling gold passes, the Fast Lane lines were already long.  Now they are longer.

When they have to put a sign up in front of the Fast Lane line indicating how long the Fast Lane line is, they oversold or have too many people in the park LOL.

Similar to @DispatchMaster, I swore CP off when they sold the gold passes because that October was horrible up there.  Way too crowded and even folks with FL were not getting many rides in.

I did take a visit this summer and it quickly reminded me why I said I wouldn't return.  45-minute plus Fast Lane lines are a waste.  Letting everyone in for ERT is a waste.

 

[Orion742]

21 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

To shift discussion a bit:

Which current Six Flags park is the most like Cedar Fair?

Which current Cedar Fair park is the most like Six Flags?

Fiesta is definitely much like a Cedar Fair park.

Hard to say. All the Cedar Fair parks don’t feel like Six Flags parks in my opinion. But if I had to pick I would probably say Valleyfair. And again it does not feel like a Six Flags park but if I had to choose that is what I would say.

[DispatchMaster]

1 hour ago, KI Guy said:

Whether a more expensive gold pass would net more revenue is an unresolved question at the moment.

Providing season-long access to a park that was at or near capacity during Halloweekends at a price point close to single day admission almost certainly left a ton of money on the table. If you can't meet demand at $X, you don't lower the price. It might not work at every park (e.g. MA, KI, etc.), but CP could have cranked the gate & pass price up quite a bit before they would have seen a drop off in attendance.

Six Flags tried the "give away the gate, make it up on volume") strategy, and they've effectively been purchased by Cedar Fair as a result of that "strategy". Just because it works for Walmart doesn't mean it makes sense in the entertainment industry.

[KI Guy]

1 hour ago, disco2000 said:

I did take a visit this summer and it quickly reminded me why I said I wouldn't return.  45-minute plus Fast Lane lines are a waste.  Letting everyone in for ERT is a waste.

I'm with you, but if the Cedar Point lines are clogged with people who paid $95-200 for daily Fast Lane or $950 for the season long plan they very well might not care. The "integrity" of the Fast Lane product and what it's supposed to get you is not going to matter as much to them as the revenue it can provide.

They've essentially set up a tiered ticket system where on even moderately busy days the regular admission is lousy and the Fast Lane entry is decent. I wish the industry could go back to the pre-Fast Lane way of doing things, but I don't think that's going to happen any time soon.

[Kenban]

8 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

Providing season-long access to a park that was at or near capacity during Halloweekends at a price point close to single day admission almost certainly left a ton of money on the table. If you can't meet demand at $X, you don't lower the price. It might not work at every park (e.g. MA, KI, etc.), but CP could have cranked the gate & pass price up quite a bit before they would have seen a drop off in attendance.

Jason McClure spoke about the gold passes at Coaster Mania during the Q&A session the year after it started being offered at $99.  According to him enthusiasts are really overstating how many gold passes were being used during the extremely busy Halloweekends days, and that we are also wrong about how many of those passes sold.  He basically stated that the vast majority of the guests when the park hit capacity were not using gold passes, and that the cheap passes had nothing to with the crowding.

He was the parks GM at the time, and has access to all of the information needed to make these claims.  As I remember Kings Island was essentially in the same position on the same days.  The parking lot was filled to the brim with even the water parks lot full and people parking in the grass.

It does feel like Cedar Point could get away with raising the pass price, or not including Halloweekends.  Personally I have suspected the reason for changing how the passes work and dropping the platinum pass was to make it easier to introduce more pass levels, and taking features away from the gold pass and making them part of the mid tier(s) seems likely to me.

[DispatchMaster]

I don't imagine a Cedar Fair executive would publicly admit that they lost significant revenue as a result of their pricing strategies, so I take those comments with a silo of salt. The fact of the matter is that they took a wildly popular product that was selling beyond capacity and reduced the selling price of that product. I simply do not subscribe to the Walmart-ization strategy.

Furthermore, the "also wrong about how many passes were sold" seems like outright, patronizing BS when CF has regularly trumpeted "record season pass sales" and/or "higher season pass mix" in annual/quarterly reports since the introduction of the Gold Pass.