DJSkyFoxx Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 2 hours ago, RedSummit20 said: TBH i know the cuts and prices going up suck but also ive been going there my whole life, nothing will stop me from going, even if i dont agree with an option the park makes, theres nothing we can do about it. Just cause you say youre not going to go, thats not going to affect the park at all if 1 person dont go. I love Kings Island and alway have. So i will support the park by getting a pass every year and making memories. Does it suck some of my good friends dont work there anymore, yes, yes it stinks. But theres nothing you or i can do about it. I feel bad for them 2 of the park ambassadors were good friends of mine. But day in and day out is a business decision. Good luck and hope you return to Ki! I did not say FOR SURE what I was going to do. I was simply stating that I have a lot to think about before I make my decision in which I have plenty of time to do so. It's not about "affecting" the park, I never stated anything about that. It is simply weighing on the situation at hand. You do you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2000 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 3 hours ago, RedSummit20 said: TBH i know the cuts and prices going up suck but also ive been going there my whole life, nothing will stop me from going, even if i dont agree with an option the park makes, theres nothing we can do about it. Just cause you say youre not going to go, thats not going to affect the park at all if 1 person dont go. I love Kings Island and alway have. So i will support the park by getting a pass every year and making memories. Does it suck some of my good friends dont work there anymore, yes, yes it stinks. But theres nothing you or i can do about it. I feel bad for them 2 of the park ambassadors were good friends of mine. But day in and day out is a business decision. Good luck and hope you return to Ki! And for good or bad, it is this mentality the park banks on. Sure they lose a few that don't renew, but if that loss is made up with new passholders, they really don't have an incentive to improve the product. It is the entire argument that DispatchMaster ran on - he would say it makes good business sense to cut stuff and save money since people like you will come regardless. Thousands of passholders prescribe to your mentality of continuing to buy a pass because at the end of the day, cuts and all, it is still an incredible value for the entertainment dollar. Heck, they could close KI like they did Geauga Lake and probably still sell thousands of passes for a closed park That is how loyal of a season pass base the park has LOL. The question is how much lowering of the value of the product before the masses leave in enough quantity that it makes an impact on the bottom line? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoddaH1994 Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 42 minutes ago, disco2000 said: And for good or bad, it is this mentality the park banks on. Sure they lose a few that don't renew, but if that loss is made up with new passholders, they really don't have an incentive to improve the product. It is the entire argument that DispatchMaster ran on - he would say it makes good business sense to cut stuff and save money since people like you will come regardless. Thousands of passholders prescribe to your mentality of continuing to buy a pass because at the end of the day, cuts and all, it is still an incredible value for the entertainment dollar. Heck, they could close KI like they did Geauga Lake and probably still sell thousands of passes for a closed park That is how loyal of a season pass base the park has LOL. The question is how much lowering of the value of the product before the masses leave in enough quantity that it makes an impact on the bottom line? You both are correct, as is Dispatch Master. “Why wouldn’t we cut things? Season passholders will show up anyway!” From what I’ve heard, the season pass mix was way too high for Q4 at KI. The season passholders certainly show up! No one else did. ”There are two tragedies in life—not getting what you want, and getting it.” -Oscar Wilde 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion-XL200 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 9 hours ago, kirbias1 said: Yeah, they won't cut it at CP. Just like they didn't cut CPs operation calendar like they did at KI. Just like they didn't issue a chaperone policy at CP like they did at KI (even though CP does have issues with fights and line cutting as well). Etc.... You're not wrong. 9 hours ago, DJSkyFoxx said: All of these cuts sort of make me wonder if renewing is worth it this year. On one hand, I want to. As a lover of KI and other CF parks, I want to be able to know I have the ability to go whenever I want and enjoy them as needed. But on the same token, seeing the cuts in areas that could affect the guest experience makes me leery what other things might get cut throughout the season. Seeing important positions get cut is heartbreaking for a myriad of reasons. I never had a reason or need for a park ambassador on my visits, but knowing that they helped make such a positive difference for so many people's days is a terrible loss to be had. And seeing the wage cuts I feel will impact staffing numbers as well as the quality of staff. You go from paying folks $18-20 an hour back down to the $14-15 an hour range...that is going to turn a lot of possible prospects away. All these cuts and yet the prices for things remains at a premium. I guess I will decide by April if I will renew. I feel sad for saying that, but if I am going to drop the coin on a fully loaded pass I want to be certain I am willing to accept any further cuts that will inevitably be seen/felt throughout this season. I feel sad saying that as a passholder since 2010. But this is the reality. I have almost 100% decided, not to renew for KI this year, for a multitude of reasons including the last visit I had in the normal season I was in park for 4 hours...I got tired of the crowds, the food was subpar and after lapping each ride at least twice I was bored. I'll be back at CP this upcoming season with a gold pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2000 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 3 minutes ago, Orion-XL200 said: You're not wrong. I have almost 100% decided, not to renew for KI this year, for a multitude of reasons including the last visit I had in the normal season I was in park for 4 hours...I got tired of the crowds, the food was subpar and after lapping each ride at least twice I was bored. I'll be back at CP this upcoming season with a gold pass. So the crowds at CP are light 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion-XL200 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 9 minutes ago, disco2000 said: So the crowds at CP are light I wouldn't say light per say, but they midways are more manageable when packed lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoan Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 On 1/24/2024 at 10:53 AM, RedSummit20 said: TBH i know the cuts and prices going up suck but also ive been going there my whole life, nothing will stop me from going, even if i dont agree with an option the park makes, theres nothing we can do about it. Just cause you say youre not going to go, thats not going to affect the park at all if 1 person dont go. I love Kings Island and alway have. So i will support the park by getting a pass every year and making memories. Does it suck some of my good friends dont work there anymore, yes, yes it stinks. But theres nothing you or i can do about it. I feel bad for them 2 of the park ambassadors were good friends of mine. But day in and day out is a business decision. Good luck and hope you return to Ki! Like I sort of alluded to in my post, I'm in the same-ish boat. I will probably still keep going, but I can see myself dropping all the way back to just plain gold passes with no bonuses except season funpix (still the best deal in the park), and possibly even cutting out passes for the whole family, and instead keeping one for the daughter I have that loves the park and me only. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
super7 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 On 1/24/2024 at 2:23 PM, disco2000 said: And for good or bad, it is this mentality the park banks on. Sure they lose a few that don't renew, but if that loss is made up with new passholders, they really don't have an incentive to improve the product. It is the entire argument that DispatchMaster ran on - he would say it makes good business sense to cut stuff and save money since people like you will come regardless. Thousands of passholders prescribe to your mentality of continuing to buy a pass because at the end of the day, cuts and all, it is still an incredible value for the entertainment dollar. Heck, they could close KI like they did Geauga Lake and probably still sell thousands of passes for a closed park That is how loyal of a season pass base the park has LOL. The question is how much lowering of the value of the product before the masses leave in enough quantity that it makes an impact on the bottom line? This is exactly why Cedar Fair and other chain parks are operated this way. They sell cheap season passes and meal plans and people buy them no matter what. In the long run people get what they pay for. i’m sure the company management has the attitude that people are going to buy the season passes no matter what they do because of the price. theme parks were much better when they were special events a few times a year that people actually paid for each visit instead of a cheap to frequent. They really do lose their special feeling when one goes too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoddaH1994 Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 The Park Ambassador program being cut is the subject of the latest #TowerTopics: https://linktr.ee/towertopics 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion-XL200 Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Great episode @BoddaH1994 and @DonHelbig! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonHelbig Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 44 minutes ago, Orion-XL200 said: Great episode @BoddaH1994 and @DonHelbig! Thank you! Appreciate everyone that listens to Tower Topics and The Attractions Group Podcast. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DispatchMaster Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 On 1/20/2024 at 3:22 PM, disco2000 said: Exactly!!! Plus their "controlling stake" isn't but a few percentage points. From where I sit, these types of cost-cutting moves were happening long before the SF merger, and given that the merger hasn't actually happened yet ("expected to close in the first half of 2024, following receipt of Six Flags shareholder approval, regulatory approvals, and satisfaction of customary closing conditions" per CF's release), I don't think this move has anything at all to do with the merger, if that's what was being implied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlentless Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 I don't think they are taking on SF mentality of cuts per say. But pre-merger a company would want a stronger bottom line and leaner operations. CF knew of the coming merger opportunity and started planning months before GP knew of the possible merger. Plus downturn in economy, higher costs for just about everything and missing out on a year of season pass sales due to covid all played a role. Interesting next couple of years ahead post-merger. But I feel bad for the people losing their positions and for park goers who no longer have this great service available to them. Some of slack will have to be covered by existing employees and putting more pressure on them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DispatchMaster Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 In that case, I agree, because the "leaner operations" so-called strategy has been percolating since Ouimet's departure, and it's a laughably shortsighted strategy given they're in the business of providing entertainment. It's the equivalent of a movie theater using folding chairs instead of power recliners. Sure, it saves a nontrivial amount of investment up front, but is antithetical to long term success. Relying on pass holders who will purchase passes no matter what will only work for so long. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreedomPenguin Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 I honestly think it’s a good thing. I don’t think they are needed. Been going 20 years and how many times do I need ambassador? 0, never knew they existed. Thus imo don’t need them to function. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chad_1138 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 9 minutes ago, FreedomPenguin said: I honestly think it’s a good thing. I don’t think they are needed. Been going 20 years and how many times do I need ambassador? 0, never knew they existed. Thus imo don’t need them to function. The Park Ambassadors are one of those things you never know you need until you do. Many people, including my family, have benefitted from their kindness. Please don't discount the many guests and associates whose days have been made better by the Park Ambassadors. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DispatchMaster Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, FreedomPenguin said: I honestly think it’s a good thing. I don’t think they are needed. Been going 20 years and how many times do I need ambassador? 0, never knew they existed. Thus imo don’t need them to function. Of course someone who's been visiting the park for two decades wouldn't find value in this service, as it's obviously not targeted at people who are intimately familiar with every square inch of the park. This service is geared toward helping infrequent or first time visitors, and by improving their day can help turn those infrequent visitors into more regular visitors. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2000 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 30 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said: Of course someone who's been visiting the park for two decades wouldn't find value in this service, as it's obviously not targeted at people who are intimately familiar with every square inch of the park. This service is geared toward helping infrequent or first time visitors, and by improving their day can help turn those infrequent visitors into more regular visitors. That doesn't sound like your typical response Who hacked your account? I was expecting you to reply with something like if you can't measure the return on the investment on all the ambassadors walking around, it is an easy cut to help the bottom line, especially in a season pass heavy park... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DispatchMaster Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 My MO has been pretty consistent, which is that season pass holders and/or the most frequent guests, generally speaking, do not generate much per cap revenue compared to annual or semiannual guests, and therefore should not be catered to in terms of perks, etc. My argument here is consistent with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonHelbig Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 4 hours ago, disco2000 said: That doesn't sound like your typical response Who hacked your account? I was expecting you to reply with something like if you can't measure the return on the investment on all the ambassadors walking around, it is an easy cut to help the bottom line, especially in a season pass heavy park... Used his words instead of someone else's. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TombRaiderFTW Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 8 hours ago, FreedomPenguin said: I honestly think it’s a good thing. I don’t think they are needed. Been going 20 years and how many times do I need ambassador? 0, never knew they existed. Thus imo don’t need them to function. I love this new litmus test for amusement park amenity usefulness. If it's not relevant to KIC user FreedomPenguin, it's gotta go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr0y Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 6 hours ago, DispatchMaster said: My MO has been pretty consistent, which is that season pass holders and/or the most frequent guests, generally speaking, do not generate much per cap revenue compared to annual or semiannual guests, and therefore should not be catered to in terms of perks, etc. My argument here is consistent with that. I guess it would depend on how you look at it. I would think season pass holders spend more at the park for the year versus the annual or semi-annual guest. However your annual or semi-annual guest will spend more per visit. For example, I’ve spent $1055.17 at Kings Island for the 2023 season. I visited the park 34 times, which breaks down $31.03 a visit which in turn is cheaper than a single day ticket. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenthodge Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 I think its an odd cut seeing as with this year's and last's additions, they are clearly NOT only going for a thrill-seeker enthusiast demographic as much as a family, probably 1-2x pr season, spend more on food, bev and merch guest. Thats exactly the type of guest that would be served by this position and as someone else pointed out, might have the most amazing day thanks to them and BECOME the regular pass-holding customer down the road. Could the team be pared back? Maybe. But totally cut out? I think its very short sighted 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeastFarmer Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 hour ago, brenthodge said: I think its very short sighted Like many other things from last season.. Not washing midways ( moms notice), trash bins overflowing...less monsters and Christmas characters... People do notice outside of the enthusiast community. These decisions eventually will bite them in the row 18. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoddaH1994 Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 The irony should never be lost on us: August through December: “Can you pleeeeaaaaasssseeee buy a season pass? Please?” January through July: “OMG the season passholders are so entitled. Their concerns about our bait and switch for Prestige are as adorable as they are predictable!” Just remember “blah blah blah family of four spends more money” but the season pass holders essentially front a $30 million loan for the company each year, interest free. If, say, 20% got fed up and didn’t renew, their entire business model would collapse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2000 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 36 minutes ago, BoddaH1994 said: The irony should never be lost on us: August through December: “Can you pleeeeaaaaasssseeee buy a season pass? Please?” January through July: “OMG the season passholders are so entitled. Their concerns about our bait and switch for Prestige are as adorable as they are predictable!” Just remember “blah blah blah family of four spends more money” but the season pass holders essentially front a $30 million loan for the company each year, interest free. If, say, 20% got fed up and didn’t renew, their entire business model would collapse. While true, we also have many passholders that have said they will continue to buy a pass regardless of the product being provided because the value is still too great. How many subscribe to that mindset? And as long as the number of "new" passes sold every year equal or outperform those that do not "renew" each year, they really have no incentive to cater to the existing passholder...until of course they have devalued the product to the point that even the "no matter what I am renewing" crowd decide to walk away and CF feels that loss. But then all they have to do is offer a freebie like a pullover or Front of the Line each visit or even an exclusive ink pin freebie, and the folks return to renew in mass quantities....the psychological aspect of a freebie is a tool in the CF toolbox.... And folks will come regardless of what the freebie is because who wants to turn down a freebie, even it you don't need it LOL... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoddaH1994 Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 11 minutes ago, disco2000 said: While true, we also have many passholders that have said they will continue to buy a pass regardless of the product being provided because the value is still too great. How many subscribe to that mindset? And as long as the number of "new" passes sold every year equal or outperform those that do not "renew" each year, they really have no incentive to cater to the existing passholder...until of course they have devalued the product to the point that even the "no matter what I am renewing" crowd decide to walk away and CF feels that loss. But then all they have to do is offer a freebie like a pullover or Front of the Line each visit or even an exclusive ink pin freebie, and the folks return to renew in mass quantities....the psychological aspect of a freebie is a tool in the CF toolbox.... And folks will come regardless of what the freebie is because who wants to turn down a freebie, even it you don't need it LOL... YES! And if the value is diminished that it’s only worth $100 for an entire season, ALL they will get is season pass holders. This whole thing is working against the other side of their business plan. Remember: the two great tragedies in life… 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr0y Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 3 hours ago, disco2000 said: While true, we also have many passholders that have said they will continue to buy a pass regardless of the product being provided because the value is still too great. How many subscribe to that mindset? Then why make cuts to guest experience versus just asking for more money? If CF was so confident that is the case. What's a $10 increase to season passes across the board? When you have a payment plan system in place which $10 may increase the monthly bill by roughly a dollar? I don't think many if any customers would fuss at that, and it would be a lot less visible than some of the current cuts to guest experience. If KI sold let's say, 1 million season passes with a $10 increase across the board that becomes a pretty good chunk of coin. Likely enough to pay for said cuts, and then some. In a twisted sense, it appears that the current CEO of CF is wanting to keep prices cheap and essentially attract Walmart customers, yet the current CEO of Six Flags publicly stated he's trying to avoid that. It will be interesting to see what happens post-merger. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DispatchMaster Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 On 2/2/2024 at 4:05 PM, Tr0y said: For example, I’ve spent $1055.17 at Kings Island for the 2023 season. I visited the park 34 times, which breaks down $31.03 a visit which in turn is cheaper than a single day ticket. Indeed, you are way below the average per cap, just like most pass holders. It's been a while since I've looked at our spend that closely, but I know we regularly spent well more than that on lodging alone for our "big" 4- or 5-day visit to CP every year than you spent for an entire season. Lodging was always around $250/day all-in. Add in season passes (used for probably 10 days per year), and the pretty significant in-park spend on everything else, which was around $150/day at minimum, and, for our family of 3 or 4, we were well north of $100/person/day, with our daily in park per cap including admission somewhere around $80. But we were not the average pass holder in terms of per cap. Most are probably much closer to your per visit/cap, hence my critiques of the sense of entitlement. And in chasing the higher volume at lower margin guest, they've pushed us out, which seems like a poor strategy, as I doubt we're alone. But if they are able to compensate with higher volume, more power to them in their race to the bottom. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenageninja Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 On 2/3/2024 at 5:16 PM, Tr0y said: Then why make cuts to guest experience versus just asking for more money? If CF was so confident that is the case. What's a $10 increase to season passes across the board? When you have a payment plan system in place which $10 may increase the monthly bill by roughly a dollar? I don't think many if any customers would fuss at that, and it would be a lot less visible than some of the current cuts to guest experience. If KI sold let's say, 1 million season passes with a $10 increase across the board that becomes a pretty good chunk of coin. Likely enough to pay for said cuts, and then some. In a twisted sense, it appears that the current CEO of CF is wanting to keep prices cheap and essentially attract Walmart customers, yet the current CEO of Six Flags publicly stated he's trying to avoid that. It will be interesting to see what happens post-merger. Kings Island attracts a Dollar General crowd on average. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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