Orion Reviews

[DispatchMaster]

Ride rankings are meaningless, and unless you've talked to a statistically-significant percentage of KI's annual patrons, so too are those conversations.

Line length, as you allude to, means nothing without further context. Orion may have better capacity than DB, which would result in shorter lines. So long as the ride performs at the ridership and cost/rider metrics the park aims for, that's all that matters.

If KI and CF could make the business case for a ride, they would install it. It's not more complicated than that. 

[Tr0y]

41 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

"Exceeded" by what metric? Cost? Definitely not, because CF has thankfully learned that it's fiscally irresponsible to spend that kind of money on a roller coaster.

But I can guarantee that if KI could make a clear, compelling business case for a taller, faster, longer, or whatever-er coaster CF would absolutely greenlight it. Fury 325 is proof of that.

I think what he means by “exceeding” is ride experience. Cedar Fair does not want KI cannibalizing from CP. The reason CP has any draw is because of the ride quality and record breaking rides and coasters. Cedar Fair has too much invested in Hotels in Sandusky, which heavily rely on CP drawling people in. Gone are the days of Paramount which was attempting to make KI a destination park. No more first of their kind rides or coasters, no more multi record breakers. Cedar Fair will only do enough to keep the status quo at KI. Kings Island is the Ohio step child now.

[SonofBaconator]

What does any of this have to do with Adventure Port?

[johnjniehaus]

I too think that Orion is too similar to Dback however it's still a great ride and no it's not as good as other Gigas but it's still a really good coaster....the complaints usually are that they could have done better and I hear you they could have but they gave us what they gave us and at least we have a giga of some sort. A "bad" giga (if there is such a thing) is better than no giga. Furthermore Orion is better than the coaster it replaced (Firehawk) so to me that counts for something. I say let's be thankful that Cedar Fair gave us the giga coaster instead of scraping the design altogether whenever it was clear it wasn't going to CA great America. 

 

Now back on topic, the zamperla flats aren't as nice as some other manufacturers however they fit well in the park, visually look nice, and fit the budget and seeing as the whole idea came together last minute, I think it's safe to say that originally 2023 would have been the down year with no new rides (just Dback repaint and Red Racer Re-tracking jobs). I really hope they have something good to follow this up with next year (Phantom Theater 2024 pretty please!) I personally think The Vortex replacement is coming in 2025 but who knows. Regardless I'm glad they spent some money and made a nice small investment instead of doing nothing basically. 

[KI Guy]

On 6/15/2023 at 10:36 AM, DispatchMaster said:

On 6/15/2023 at 10:18 AM, disco2000 said:

...not be referred to as DB2.0 as many guests call it lol

...many compare Diamondback and Orion as roughly the same experience.

What percentage of KI's annual attendees do you think complain about the similarity? The overwhelming majority of guests don't think the way enthusiasts do, and thank goodness for that.

The general public is much more inclined to see Orion and Diamondback as more or less the same than enthusiasts would. It's the enthusiasts/diehard fans who draw minor distinctions and obsess over every detail or statistic. Since the two coasters look and feel similar, they're going to be viewed as the same. I don't think this could be said of any other two coasters in the park.

Definitely though the level of and visibility of complaints will be different largely because rides mean more personally to enthusiasts. An enthusiast will rant or rave. A general public guest will say "that could be better, oh well", or "that was pretty good."

[DispatchMaster]

23 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

Cedar Fair does not want KI cannibalizing from CP

This is just complete nonsense. They are both regional parks and do not compete, since each draws almost all of their guests, and therefore revenue, from their respective regions.

And even if that weren't the case, it still utterly nonsensical, since CF makes money regardless of whether a guest is going to CP or KI.

[Old_Bearcat]

1 hour ago, Tr0y said:

The inflation rate that I used is pretty spot on. For example Intimidator 305 being the closet resemblance to Orion in terms of ride length and being more heavily themed cost $25 million to build in 2010. It would have cost 29.75 million to build in 2020. and yeah I would’ve been perfectly content with waiting an  additional season or two for a better giga coaster. The park literally built a gangster of a coaster in Mystic Timbers, 3 years prior. Oh not to mention but a gold pass to Kings Dominion is cheaper than Carowinds, and Carowinds is cheaper than Kings Island.

Inflation Rate spot on to what? 

FWIW 2015 $30 million ->>> $32.7 million in 2020 (for Fury) is very close to the calculation using  the Consumer Price Index (CPI) https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm  (+/- $33 Million computed)

Using the ENR Construction Cost Index (which probably underestimates the 30% steel increase for the steel-heavy Orion project), $30 million in 2015 is more likely $37.5 million in 2020.

[Tr0y]

4 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

This is just complete nonsense. They are both regional parks and do not compete, since each draws almost all of their guests, and therefore revenue, from their respective regions.

And even if that weren't the case, it still utterly nonsensical, since CF makes money regardless of whether a guest is going to CP or KI.

They WERE competing parks. That is no longer the case since CF bought the park. Paramount was literally in an arms race against CP. Paramount invested more in KI in its tenure than CF has, and CF has had control of KI longer at this point. Also if you were to adjust coaster additions based off inflation Son of Beast would have been the most expensive addition in KI history.

[Tr0y]

15 minutes ago, Old_Bearcat said:

Inflation Rate spot on to what? 

FWIW 2015 $30 million ->>> $32.7 million in 2020 (for Fury) is very close to the calculation using  the Consumer Price Index (CPI) https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm  (+/- $33 Million computed)

Using the ENR Construction Cost Index (which probably underestimates the 30% steel increase for the steel-heavy Orion project), $30 million in 2015 is more likely $37.5 million in 2020.

My basis of CPI and why I meant it is pretty close to spot on is comparing the coasters in terms of track length. Which roughly equates to steel being used.
Intimidator 305: Cost $25 million to build in 2012. If adjusted by CPI it would’ve cost $29.75 Million to build in 2020 (The year Orion was built) its cheaper than Orion with adjusted inflation but it’s also shorter. It’s track length is shorter at 5,100 ft.

Orion: Cost $30 Million to build in 2020.  Track length: 5,321 ft.

221 ft in track difference cost $275,000 roughly. Obviously there are other factors in price. Having the coaster plant only an hour away from KI probably helps, but I digress.
 

[DispatchMaster]

They've never been competing parks. It's true that all regionals were in a dumb "arms race" during the "coaster wars", but parks weren't competing for revenue, they were competing for bragging rights.

And yes, Paramount invested more heavily than CF, but that's because KI was a less mature park in terms of ride offerings. I mean, CP invested more heavily in itself before it became CF and before the Paramount purchase, because the 90's and early 00's saw massive investment in the industry. It had and has nothing to do with competition between individual regional parks that draw from different regions.

Again, if KI and CF could make a business case for Ride X, they would build Ride X, plain and simple. It's not some emotional or territorial issue, it's just business.

[Old_Bearcat]

You can't use CPI to adjust for construction inflation, it is simply the wrong metric.   Intimidator would have cost $31 Million in 2020, which was more than Orion.

[BeeastFarmer]

13 hours ago, Tr0y said:

Orion built in 2020, cost 30 million to build. Now let’s compare it to the other giga coasters built and adjust their price tags to what they would’ve cost to build in 2020 based off inflation:

Millenium Force built in 2000, cost $25 million to build. Would cost $37.5 million to build in 2020.

Steel Dragon 2000 built in 2020, cost $52 million to build. It’s expensive price tag is because it was built to withstand earthquakes. Would cost $78 million to build in 2020.

Intimidator 305 built in 2010, cost $25 million to build. Would cost $29.75 million to build in 2020.

Leviathan built in 2012, cost $28 million to build. Would cost $31.64 million to build in 2020.

Fury 325 built in 2015, cost $30 million to build. Would cost $32.7 million to build in 2020.

Comparing apples to oranges.

Fury required and entirely new entry plaza.  I mean demoing everything about the old plaza and starting new, but with a (mini) copy of Cedar Points entry. They repaved and redeveloped a parking area.  If I recall correctly, they also added a new toll plaza and widened the main road into the park. 

Kings Island demo'ed a roller coaster, clear cut a few acres of forest and rethemed a pretty dead area of the park. Their coaster has high elements vs Furys low elements. Intimidator 305 is the closest comparison here, but we did get the improved GiGa because they learned from the mistake they made at KD .

All that being said...we got a great coaster that had an intended purpose before. That's not uncommon...I have a theory that Avalanche/whatever it's called now was supposed to go to ki and AE was supposed to go to KD.  The themes fit the areas  better. But we got the better coaster with AE. My personal rankings of the 5 GiGas I have ridden: fury, Millie, Levi, Orion and Intimidator.  But I enjoy them all except Intimidator.  

A responsible business develops a budget according to needs and appropriates money where it seems they will get the most bang for the buck.  And they try to stay within that budget.

People seem to get the word budget confused with the word cheap around here an awful lot. 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

It's been almost 4 years since Orion was first announced and 3 since it opened and we are still having this debate?! lol just be grateful we got a $30 million investment when there are parks in the chain that haven't gotten a new coaster in nearly 20 years lol. Also this thread is an Adventure Port thread not an Orion thread. There is already a thread for Orion talks lol. 

[Tr0y]

4 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

What does any of this have to do with Adventure Port?

Everything, At the end of the season I plan offering up a sacrifice to the Head. I hope it will bring us good fortune on the next coaster.

[BeeastFarmer]

 

Why in the world the park doesn't use the audio on the lift hill is a mystery to me...and why they don't have the soundtrack music on the break run with a narrative to the effect of " welcome back, test subjects thank you for the contribution to the Orion project*

[LuvingKI]

32 minutes ago, BeeastFarmer said:

 

Why in the world the park doesn't use the audio on the lift hill is a mystery to me...and why they don't have the soundtrack music on the break run with a narrative to the effect of " welcome back, test subjects thank you for the contribution to the Orion project*

That would add so much for a lot of people.

[calakapepe]

Orion is literally my favorite coaster at Kings Island right now. Its duration leaves some to be desired... but so does The Bat.. and half the coasters at Hershey.. and many other places; it happens sometimes.

But, the ride style is very much my style. I know, very specific

[FUN&ONLY!]

17 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said:

 

Why in the world the park doesn't use the audio on the lift hill is a mystery to me...and why they don't have the soundtrack music on the break run with a narrative to the effect of " welcome back, test subjects thank you for the contribution to the Orion project*

I wish Kings Island would crank up the soundtrack in Area 72. With The Racer’s brake run and Orion’s lift motor nearby, it is kind of hard to hear. It is too good to go unnoticed by a lot of park guests. I also wish the soundtrack would return to Orion’s station. I have not heard it in a while.

[brenthodge]

On 6/15/2023 at 11:19 AM, Tr0y said:

I think what he means by “exceeding” is ride experience. Cedar Fair does not want KI cannibalizing from CP. The reason CP has any draw is because of the ride quality and record breaking rides and coasters. Cedar Fair has too much invested in Hotels in Sandusky, which heavily rely on CP drawling people in. Gone are the days of Paramount which was attempting to make KI a destination park. No more first of their kind rides or coasters, no more multi record breakers. Cedar Fair will only do enough to keep the status quo at KI. Kings Island is the Ohio step child now.

I don't think we are the stepchild at all - we are just becoming a park with a different expansion, marketing and demographic strategy. YES when there were two competing operators, they tried to outdo each other at their own game, and now that they are under ONE operator it makes much more sense to diversify the regional portfolio of product. YOU might not like the development strategy of the park, but that doesn't mean its not working - or taking large amounts of capitol to execute. I have had an actual conversation with Mike Koontz who basically said "the old method of only marketing based on stats alone isn't sustainable in the long run, and we are taking a different strategy to growth", and we are certainly seeing that. Just hearing conversations yesterday from a couple of middle age grandmothers with their younger granddaughter (as well as other family members 'off riding the coasters') about how frustrating they found CP food offerings, kids rides, family-friendly rides and things to do TOGETHER, and how much nicer their day at KI had been even with a 3 hour drive (instead of the 1 hr to CP) says a lot. CF is still aiming at keeping KI a destination - just maybe due to reasons you yourself don't find compelling. 

[brenthodge]

17 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said:

 

Why in the world the park doesn't use the audio on the lift hill is a mystery to me...and why they don't have the soundtrack music on the break run with a narrative to the effect of " welcome back, test subjects thank you for the contribution to the Orion project*

especially since its one of the few lifts hills you could actually HEAR it on- that thing purrs!

[Tr0y]

2nd main theme calmer is FIRE.

[brenthodge]

32 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

2nd main theme calmer is FIRE.

I don't quite get why they do these extensive projects only to barely use them once the actual ride opens. Like someone said, these would be awesome on the lift and brake run. OnBoard audio would've been cool, but the ride might've overpowered it. Even using some of this in FOF would build consistency. Is this playing as area music now? I know it had been on and off for a while. 

[Tr0y]

On 7/4/2023 at 8:49 AM, Tr0y said:

2nd main theme calmer is FIRE.

The Orion queue hits you with these bangers. Gets you all worked up for what you would think be a world class ride. Then you actually ride the ride. In true Kings Island fashion with Mystic Timbers and Adventure Express how anti climatic.  

[Orion-XL200]

From what I have heard, the theme for Orion was supposed to be a little different, but a certain someone pushed for the meteor aspect/theme.

[Coastercrush]

7 minutes ago, Orion-XL200 said:

From what I have heard, the theme for Orion was supposed to be a little different, but a certain someone pushed for the meteor aspect/theme.

Who pushed for "what's in the shed?"

[BeeastFarmer]

1 hour ago, Orion-XL200 said:

From what I have heard, the theme for Orion was supposed to be a little different, but a certain someone pushed for the meteor aspect/theme.

Spill the beans...

[Orion-XL200]

9 minutes ago, BeeastFarmer said:

Spill the beans...

That's all I have.

[IBEW_Sparky]

31 minutes ago, BeeastFarmer said:

Spill the beans...

Remember another wise statement a certain poster used to make here.... "Those who know, dont tell", not even as much as was told here... so there ya go.

[Stoan]

I mean if we are still going on about this, I still think Polaris was the better name choice, and the lift hill should have pointed at the North Star. They already themed the thing to be some kind of add-on to Outer Limits and Aliens, they could have used the Polaris system as the origination point for the spaceship.

[Tr0y]

They should’ve cloned Fury 325 and themed it Orion.