disco2000 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 hour ago, Winterfestguy said: Now KK has also added a Petal Palooza festival as well as announcing a Forth of July festival with extended hours. Nice to see new and exciting functions coming to the park. https://www.kentuckykingdom.com/explore-the-park/festivals-events/petal-palooza/ Meanwhile over at KI.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyGuy4KI Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 12 hours ago, disco2000 said: Meanwhile over at KI.... They really are shooting themselves in the foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJSkyFoxx Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 Its good to see them doing a variety of stuff for the year. Hopefully this season is good to them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeastFarmer Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 It's interesting to read these comments about KK. Ten years ago, many were saying it would not reopen. It did. Next, people said KI/CF laughs at the thought of KK being a competitor. Then, people started to notice when they opened Storm Chaser and made a splash with calling out the guy who had his cell phone out COVID happened and literally detailed the raptor. Things were bleak. The park was saved again, this time by HFE. People were expecting Dollywood North, quickly. That didn't happen. However, HFE has begun to implement their formula in a calculated way. They seem to have fostered a good relationship with the fair board. They spend while Cedar Fair retreats. Some here now are admitting that they take a dent out of KI. I haven't been this excited about KK since about 2016. It will never be a Kings Island, but it is making an impact. They said they had 500k guests last year, but if you figure land area size, 60 acres=500k; 300acres= 3 million. If KK was 300 acres and had no height restrictions, they could pull in 2.5 million. Not an accurate postulation, but food for thought. And how many of the 500k would have went to KI if KK didn't exist? How many hundreds of thousands of dollars would have gone to Cedar Fair instead? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyGuy4KI Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 With all the CF cuts, I could most definitely see KK pulling more and more Cedar Fair pass holders and guests than ever before. If fact, with these added offerings I think they are banking on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeastFarmer Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 I think KK is more of a local park, but then again, KI has become that with the season pass model. One season in the last ten, I think it was 2016 or 2017, KK pulled in 800k. Doesn't sound impressive. But, with the equivalent acreage model, if they had 300 acres like ki and no height restrictions, that would have equated to 4m guests, which probably would top KI admissions. The park has plenty of untapped potential, and if the fair board is reasonable, and this redesign gets rid of the road and gives the park a new parking lot and entrance...watch out. Or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion-XL200 Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 10 hours ago, IndyGuy4KI said: With all the CF cuts, I could most definitely see KK pulling more and more Cedar Fair pass holders and guests than ever before. If fact, with these added offerings I think they are banking on it. I know of about 10 families that did not renew Cedar Fair passes and bought Dollywood passes instead..... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldiesmann Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 It's great to see Herschend and the fair board working so hard to breathe some fresh life into that park. It'll be interesting to see what else they do in the coming years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purdude86 Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 13 hours ago, Orion-XL200 said: I know of about 10 families that did not renew Cedar Fair passes and bought Dollywood passes instead..... Even though it's a decent drive I have debated getting Dollywood passes some year. We love Gatlinburg anyway so figure be fun weekend get-aways a few times through the year and try to go to their different festivals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldiesmann Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 I'll probably end up buying a pass for Six Flags Great Adventure this year. It's $115 for a pass, which would get me free parking and admission both days I plan to be there in July, saving me a significant amount of money (the current price for a good-any-day single-day ticket is $70, so a pass would already save me $25 over the cost of buying two single-day tickets, and that's not counting the $50+ in parking fees over the course of two days) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenthodge Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/14/2024 at 9:42 AM, purdude86 said: Even though it's a decent drive I have debated getting Dollywood passes some year. We love Gatlinburg anyway so figure be fun weekend get-aways a few times through the year and try to go to their different festivals. we used to alternate between KI and DW each year, but then COVID end of 2019, all 2020 and the 2021 all for one price, and we just got off our cycle. We are hoping to be back to DW next year for their 40th. Pretty much "done" with KI at this point, and they arent really doing anything other than "being cheap" to make getting passes worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonHelbig Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/13/2024 at 10:22 AM, IndyGuy4KI said: With all the CF cuts, I could most definitely see KK pulling more and more Cedar Fair pass holders and guests than ever before. If fact, with these added offerings I think they are banking on it. I bought a 2024 KK season pass. I'm looking forward to the different events. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoddaH1994 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/13/2024 at 8:30 PM, Orion-XL200 said: I know of about 10 families that did not renew Cedar Fair passes and bought Dollywood passes instead..... I’ve seen a fair amount of that too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2000 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 20 minutes ago, BoddaH1994 said: I’ve seen a fair amount of that too. Same. Or long time platinum holders that downgraded to a KI gold pass this year and skipped the all park add-on and put that savings towards Dollywood of KK pass. I suspect we will see/hear more of that happen. The question is will it be enough of a bump that CF takes notice and makes changes or will they continue to devalue the offering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeastFarmer Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 2 minutes ago, disco2000 said: Same. Or long-time platinum holders that downgraded to a KI gold pass this year and skipped the all park add-on and put that savings towards Dollywood of KK pass. I suspect we will see/hear more of that happen. The question is will it be enough of a bump that CF takes notice and makes changes, or will they continue to devalue the offering? The pass CF offers is a tremendous value. And the KI experience is generally second to none in the peer group--rides, associates, atmosphere etc. But the very things that elevate KI are the things that corporate seems to chip away at. Prestige Pass ambiguity which leads to mistrust. Cut staffing in ride operations so that 3 people do the work of 5 (which is noticeable, and the ops were still great, but overworked, eventually their passion will fade). Don't wash the midways daily, so now they look grimy...trash cans can overflow longer, less flowers can be planted...It seems as if they are degrading from Target to Dollar General and bypassing Wal-Mart altogether! The impression I get is that this is not Kings Island's choice, and it was foisted. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DispatchMaster Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Anecdotally, I know a lot of people who have visited Pigeon Forge in recent years, and people that have frequented the area for many years have commented on the region's increased popularity. As word of mouth about the area continues to spread, DW will no doubt benefit. And good for them, it's nice to see well-run properties reap the rewards of wise investment and understanding that they're in the business of creating memories, rather than the current SF/CF approach, which seems purely transactional with no long term strategy. That said, DW is not going to siphon off guests from "nearby" SF/CF parks, because there really aren't any. What SF/CF should be worried about is their regional parks losing to their regional competition - other entertainment options. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron88stang Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Most years I do not visit the Pigeon Forge area frequently enough to justify a DW pass, however the KK pass gets you 50% off on DW tickets now so that works our great for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoddaH1994 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 3 hours ago, Aaron88stang said: Most years I do not visit the Pigeon Forge area frequently enough to justify a DW pass, however the KK pass gets you 50% off on DW tickets now so that works our great for me. Plus your KK pass is worth more than ever now, contrasting another pass which is diminishing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2000 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 6 hours ago, DispatchMaster said: That said, DW is not going to siphon off guests from "nearby" SF/CF parks, because there really aren't any. What SF/CF should be worried about is their regional parks losing to their regional competition - other entertainment options. Yep, they will go buy a pass to Coney Island...oh wait. Maybe Entertrainment Junction...oh wait.... I guess we still have the zoo and your fave the Newport Aquarium... The fact of the matter is, and we have said it before, is even with the devaluing of the product, the cost/hr of entertainmnent/food at KI can't be beat. Try to go to a Reds game at the same cost/hr. A round of golf? A game of putt-putt? Sure KI will have some attrition as some will decide to take their money elsewhere, but the bean counters must feel like that loss is less than the loss they would see by increasing the costs to provide a better product and cost out the clientele they have been marketing to for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DispatchMaster Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 13 hours ago, disco2000 said: ...the cost/hr of entertainmnent/food at KI can't be beat. Right, and that's exactly the problem with their strategy! Pass holders do, of course, get a tremendous amount of value out of their purchase. But that's just another way of saying that pass holders produce far less profit per visit compared to the once per year (or whatever) visitor. 13 hours ago, disco2000 said: ...the bean counters must feel like that loss is less than the loss they would see by increasing the costs to provide a better product and cost out the clientele they have been marketing to for years. And they are wrong to use that as their long term strategy. Matt Ouimet understood the business quite well, and the way he distilled it down was quite simple - the parks are in the business of making memories, and more broadly, leveraging those memories to create long-term, generational visitors. Many of us love going to these parks because we have great memories of visiting as kids, so we seek to recreate, relive, and share those memories and experiences with our kids, so they can share it with theirs, and so on down the line. It's a long game, not a short one. But the chain isn't making moves that indicate they are concerned with the long term vision of the parks. Decimating live entertainment, neutering operations, and especially moving their product down market price-wise are all short term moves that reek of the "must produce increased profit margin each quarter" mentality that is unavoidably a race to the bottom, because, at a certain point you've tapped out the market in terms of population, so they're beholden to generate revenue from that fixed population. Lowering ticket prices just means they're targeting customers who are seeking "value" at the expense of attracting customers who are willing to pay a premium for a more premium product. And those customers willing to pay for a more premium product will instead go create lasting memories at the chain's competition, and thus create generational visitors, none of whom will ever set foot in a CF/SF park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco2000 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 7 hours ago, DispatchMaster said: Right, and that's exactly the problem with their strategy! Pass holders do, of course, get a tremendous amount of value out of their purchase. But that's just another way of saying that pass holders produce far less profit per visit compared to the once per year (or whatever) visitor. And they are wrong to use that as their long term strategy. Matt Ouimet understood the business quite well, and the way he distilled it down was quite simple - the parks are in the business of making memories, and more broadly, leveraging those memories to create long-term, generational visitors. Many of us love going to these parks because we have great memories of visiting as kids, so we seek to recreate, relive, and share those memories and experiences with our kids, so they can share it with theirs, and so on down the line. It's a long game, not a short one. But the chain isn't making moves that indicate they are concerned with the long term vision of the parks. Decimating live entertainment, neutering operations, and especially moving their product down market price-wise are all short term moves that reek of the "must produce increased profit margin each quarter" mentality that is unavoidably a race to the bottom, because, at a certain point you've tapped out the market in terms of population, so they're beholden to generate revenue from that fixed population. Lowering ticket prices just means they're targeting customers who are seeking "value" at the expense of attracting customers who are willing to pay a premium for a more premium product. And those customers willing to pay for a more premium product will instead go create lasting memories at the chain's competition, and thus create generational visitors, none of whom will ever set foot in a CF/SF park. And would these customers seeking value pay for overpriced alcohol in the new alcohol location in Coney? One can only squeeze so many nickels out of people. I guess CF believes there are a lot of nickels to be squeezed out of passholders that already have meal and drink add-ons.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KI Guy Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 16 hours ago, DispatchMaster said: But the chain isn't making moves that indicate they are concerned with the long term vision of the parks. Decimating live entertainment, neutering operations, and especially moving their product down market price-wise are all short term moves that reek of the "must produce increased profit margin each quarter" mentality that is unavoidably a race to the bottom, because, at a certain point you've tapped out the market in terms of population, so they're beholden to generate revenue from that fixed population. This is right on point. Some here operate under the assumption that the leadership at Cedar Fair care primarily about the health of the company long-term. Ideally of course they would, but many shareholders (of any corporation) are not that patient and are more greedy that that. The temptation to sacrifice the long-term health for short-term gain is constant. Sacrificing tomorrow's goodwill, (or memories), for a half point increase in the stock price here and there is a dreadful strategy for the long-term. What's more the cost cutting and hours cutting we've seen can only be considered because of the goodwill earned over the decades in the customer base. At some point though the shine from good memories and a golden past reputation start to wear off and people start to evaluate the park for what it is now. This can take some time, but it happens to any business that cost-cuts or underwhelms its customers for too long. "I can't wait to go back" becomes "This place is not what it used to be." 9 hours ago, disco2000 said: And those customers willing to pay for a more premium product will instead go create lasting memories at the chain's competition, and thus create generational visitors, none of whom will ever set foot in a CF/SF park. As @DispatchMaster indicated it's potentially worse than that. Most people are not diehard amusement park fans so dissatisfied customers could instead spend on any other entertainment or non-essential "nice-to-have" product. A huge vulnerability Cedar Fair faces, assuming the premium product remains the focus of their business model for growth, is that they need a large base of standard "volume" customers to increase the perceived value of the premium products (Fast Lane, VIP, etc.). Without this large base of satisfied "volume" customers they have little to no viable premium products. Why pay to cut when the lines are short? Why buy a food plan when the food is sub-par? In other words losing volume customers is a double hit financially. Perhaps unintentionally this model provides a disincentive to go upmarket. Investing in the park means higher costs which means higher prices. Higher prices means fewer guests. Fewer guests mean fewer people see the need to purchase Fast Lane and premium products-- a vicious circle if they get entrapped in that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeastFarmer Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 I think in my own experience...KI was the places of places back in the day. When I was a small child, I have more fond memories of KI than WDW. After college, I moved on. This also happened to be the paramount years, and during that time, it went from being a once or twice a year thing to a three times in 15 years thing because the experience was stripped. When Cedar Fair took over the reigns, I became a passholder for two years simply because the park dropped the "paramount" name, the park was clean again, etc. Then it got degraded again for short term gain/ corporate survival. From 2014-2022 was a great run for the park. Now we are back in cheap mode, and many are noticing. But the problem this time is...those negative words and reviews spread much quicker today vs even 2011 or 2010 because social media is almost omnipresent. The good news is that this industry is cyclical. When the times come again, and they will, they will have more data under the hood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DispatchMaster Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Not only can negative word spread faster than ever, there are also more entertainment choices now, so tougher competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormChaser97 Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 I wasn’t able to get pics because I just drove by on my way home on the interstate but T3 is officially (finally!!!) being dismantled. Hopefully this means a new addition for next year! Herschend seems to be kicking into high gear at the Kingdom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver2005 Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 Did I see it correctly somewhere that T3 is getting dismantled in a way where its possibly being relocated? I forget where I saw photos, but the track pieces looked good enough to rebuild somewhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor.B03 Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 7 minutes ago, silver2005 said: Did I see it correctly somewhere that T3 is getting dismantled in a way where its possibly being relocated? I forget where I saw photos, but the track pieces looked good enough to rebuild somewhere. New for 2025, Michigan's Adventure newest racing roller coaster Thunderhawk^2! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyrider Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 I am glad to see Kentucky Kingdom add a holiday event called Christmas at Kentucky Kingdom. I’m sure it will especially make season pass holders happy. I’m definitely going to check this out this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormChaser97 Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 On 4/9/2024 at 8:46 PM, silver2005 said: Did I see it correctly somewhere that T3 is getting dismantled in a way where it’s possibly being relocated? I forget where I saw photos, but the track pieces looked good enough to rebuild somewhere. They are indeed taking the atrocity down gently. I can’t imagine this going anywhere else in the HFE chain… this addition is far beneath Dollywood and Silver Dollar City. Wild Adventures already has an SLC in Twisted Typhoon. They are most likely looking to sell this off to an unfortunate buyer haha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion-XL200 Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 2 minutes ago, StormChaser97 said: They are indeed taking the atrocity down gently. I can’t imagine this going anywhere else in the HFE chain… this addition is far beneath Dollywood and Silver Dollar City. Wild Adventures already has an SLC in Twisted Typhoon. They are most likely looking to sell this off to an unfortunate buyer haha I forget the exact location online, but the listing for the coaster says "reserved." Someone apparently is buying it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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