Discussing Land and Space in and around Vortex

[KI Guy]

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

Over the last 9 years, KI has installed 3 world class coasters, along with multiple flat rides, a new waterslide tower complex, various smaller additions around the park, and begun to vastly overhaul their dining options. And in that time they retired, what, 2 coasters?

Kings Island has faired better than any CF park over the last 9 seasons. I'll give you that. Regardless, even ignoring that Soapbox Racers is a budget friendly off-the-shelf-model that would never be considered world-class, that is a net add of 1 coaster over 9 seasons. That is probably not even replacement rate over time given that all their steel coasters are 9 years older than they were when they put in Mystic Timbers in 2017.

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

That's a ridiculous straw man, as I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. But making a ride the "-est" in its category is not intrinsically innovative.

It's not a straw man. I gave you two other examples of KI going above and beyond in the past and I could give you more. I'm explaining a mindset that seems to be waning. Kings Island always had world class, unique attractions and now it seems they are just trying to get by. It goes far beyond ride additions as we've discussed.

57 minutes ago, Outdoor Man said:

Bigger, taller, faster coasters are better.  Better is better.

Not necessarily even size, but at least more exciting or different. More investment, more effort, some pushing of the envelope... It all matters. It was done for a reason in the past, and it was not that the park was not "mature" yet. It was because it's necessary to keep your good reputation and quality which drives people to the park year after year.

[DispatchMaster]

38 minutes ago, Outdoor Man said:

Bigger, taller, faster coasters are better. 

*Son of Beast has entered the chat*

[DispatchMaster]

1 hour ago, KI Guy said:

Kings Island has faired better than any CF park over the last 9 seasons.

Yes, because their coaster lineup was lacking, or put another way, not quite as mature as, say, Cedar Point's. So they've been rectifying that with a relatively aggressive ride installation pace that is... *checks notes*... evidence that the park is "just trying to get by"? Ohhh kayyy... 

1 hour ago, KI Guy said:

...ignoring that...

Yes, it is true that if you ignore the things the park has added, then they have not added anything. But that's not a logical argument by any stretch, but again, I digress.

I just cannot wrap my mind around the idea that someone would be disappointed by a multimillion dollar marquee ride, simply because it doesn't fit their specific vision for what they personally would want. I mean, parks often install rides that I will never be able to set foot on, but that doesn't disappoint me. Being that willfully-jaded sounds exhausting. YMMV.

[KI Guy]

59 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

Yes, because their coaster lineup was lacking, or put another way, not quite as mature as, say, Cedar Point's. So they've been rectifying that with a relatively aggressive ride installation pace that is... *checks notes*... evidence that the park is "just trying to get by"? Ohhh kayyy... 

In the context of what KI has done in the past they have been just trying to get by since 2018. One major that is, expensive ride installation in 7 seasons is very much an anomaly for Kings Island. Perhaps it is mostly due to COVID and 2 or 3 of those seasons they were in survival mode, but it not their usual pattern of investment.

59 minutes ago, DispatchMaster said:

Yes, it is true that if you ignore the things the park has added, then they have not added anything. But that's not a logical argument by any stretch, but again, I digress.

You are not arguing in good faith. You attempt to tear other people down by accusing them of using straw men. When someone clarifies and elaborates his points you continue to feign misunderstanding of his arguments when they don't align with your own point of view. This is my last reply to you on this topic.

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

Ok can we please stop arguing and just get back to speculating about what may eventually replace Vortex?! I swear this is Spring/Summer 2018 in the giga speculation thread  all over again!

[Tr0y]

Last year’s popcorn never tasted so good! 

[CorkscrewMcPuke]

5 hours ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

Ok can we please stop arguing and just get back to speculating about what may eventually replace Vortex?! I swear this is Spring/Summer 2018 in the giga speculation thread  all over again!

I am going to die on the hill that we are owed a Virginia Reel and a stall that serves elephant ears.

[DJSkyFoxx]

12 hours ago, CorkscrewMcPuke said:

I am going to die on the hill that we are owed a Virginia Reel and a stall that serves elephant ears.

I definitely second the elephant ear stall lol

The Virginia Reel is a fascinating coaster artifact that I think would be a neat kind of experience to bring back on a modern level. I can't say I would ride it because super spiny things make me vomit 

[Outdoor Man]

On 6/11/2024 at 11:31 AM, DispatchMaster said:

*Son of Beast has entered the chat*

It's amazing how omission of a word changes the whole meaning of a post.....  

Should have been:  "Bigger, taller, faster coasters are not better.   Better is better."

D'oh!

[johnjniehaus]

Coming back to The Vortex plot, I'm hoping we see a replacement in 2026. I really really hope that the park was happy with SSBR and they decide to partner with Vekoma again for a Vortex replacement. I would enjoy seeing a coaster like Fonix as our new loopers successor to Vortex. If they are going for a dive coasters, why not do a vekoma tilt model just to make it unique from what other parks in the chain already have? Oh but really wild idea, maybe they can give us one of those new Vekoma lunched Flying Coasters... So many possibilities! 

But I'm also 100% behind a Mach Extreme Spinner. (Full circuit, not a shuttle coaster due to capacity issues). I have never ridden time traveler but I hear so many amazing things about it and ride to happiness and it would be something so special and unique for that prime plot of land which currently sits vacant and silent... 

One day the wind will blow again taking the park by storm and The Vortex will have its revenge in a new form... coming to Kings Island spring 2026! 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

1 hour ago, johnjniehaus said:

Coming back to The Vortex plot, I'm hoping we see a replacement in 2026. I really really hope that the park was happy with SSBR and they decide to partner with Vekoma again for a Vortex replacement. I would enjoy seeing a coaster like Fonix as our new loopers successor to Vortex. If they are going for a dive coasters, why not do a vekoma tilt model just to make it unique from what other parks in the chain already have? Oh but really wild idea, maybe they can give us one of those new Vekoma lunched Flying Coasters... So many possibilities! 

But I'm also 100% behind a Mach Extreme Spinner. (Full circuit, not a shuttle coaster due to capacity issues). I have never ridden time traveler but I hear so many amazing things about it and ride to happiness and it would be something so special and unique for that prime plot of land which currently sits vacant and silent... 

One day the wind will blow again taking the park by storm and The Vortex will have its revenge in a new form... coming to Kings Island spring 2026! 

I really think whatever coaster goes in that plot will likely feature a launch. KI's two current launch coasters are cloned rides and are pretty old so it is time for a modern launch coaster. CF also seems to be adding more of these modern launches recently starting with Copperhead Strike in 2019, then TT2 in 24, then the rumored launched wing for KD, and then whatever that coaster Canada's Wonderland is building that is rumored to be a multi launch by either Zamperla, Premier, or Intamin. So it would make sense that KI would be next on the list for a modern launch. I think a Vekoma shockwave or Top Gun launch coaster with multiple inversions and a few nods to Vortex here and there (ie a batwing in the old Vortex batwing location) would be a great successor to Vortex. 

[Orion742]

4 hours ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

I really think whatever coaster goes in that plot will likely feature a launch. KI's two current launch coasters are cloned rides and are pretty old so it is time for a modern launch coaster. CF also seems to be adding more of these modern launches recently starting with Copperhead Strike in 2019, then TT2 in 24, then the rumored launched wing for KD, and then whatever that coaster Canada's Wonderland is building that is rumored to be a multi launch by either Zamperla, Premier, or Intamin. So it would make sense that KI would be next on the list for a modern launch. I think a Vekoma shockwave or Top Gun launch coaster with multiple inversions and a few nods to Vortex here and there (ie a batwing in the old Vortex batwing location) would be a great successor to Vortex. 

Agreed. I hope that whatever goes there has launches and inversions because we lost two coasters that invert in 2018 and 2019. That only leaves us with Flight of Fear, which always has a massive line. Invertigo isn’t a very comfortable ride in my opinion. I’ve come off dizzy after every time I’ve ridden it recently so I’ve been skipping it. Banshee is a good ride and definitely seems to be the best option for inversions at the park but it’s also an invert and not a sit down. I really feel like we’re missing a sit down coaster with inversions and I hope whatever we get next will fill that gap. A modern sit down launch coaster is really what we need right now in my opinion.

[WoodVengeance]

I think Vekoma would be a great candidate for our next coaster. Their newer coasters in Europe and Asia look great and it seems they're one of the only manufacturers out there that can rival B&M in terms of reliability and smoothness. Given that Kings Island is a park that likes to play it safe with their coaster additions (under Cedar Fair), I think Vekoma is a no-brainer unless they go with another B&M.

[johnjniehaus]

Does anyone know the height requirement on the new vekomas? I'd prefer not to see another B&M seeing as they have a 54" height requirement and I'd really like to see the younger guests be able to ride the new attraction as well. Vortex was 48" height requirement and it would be nice if the new coaster was the same 

[WoodVengeance]

2 hours ago, johnjniehaus said:

Does anyone know the height requirement on the new vekomas? I'd prefer not to see another B&M seeing as they have a 54" height requirement and I'd really like to see the younger guests be able to ride the new attraction as well. Vortex was 48" height requirement and it would be nice if the new coaster was the same 

The Flash: Vertical Velocity at Great Adventure has already been announced to have a 48" height requirement. In addition: Lech Coaster, Fonix, Formula, and Abyssus all have a minimum height requirement of 120cm. (approximately 47 inches)

It seems like 48" is the standard height requirement for modern Vekoma thrill coasters.

[johnjniehaus]

3 hours ago, WoodVengeance said:

It seems like 48" is the standard height requirement for modern Vekoma thrill coasters.

That's what I'm talkin' about! 48" height requirement for a great ride is dynamite! One reason millennium Force is such a great one. My little sister rode that at 7 years old and then was saying how she wished she could do "the big rides" at Kings Island referring to Dback and Orion which she was still too short to ride for a few more seasons.

I love B&M don't get me wrong and the general public will love another B&M but I personally hope it's something more unique and special... something that other parks around us don't already have. 

[RollerColt]

On 6/14/2024 at 3:32 PM, johnjniehaus said:

Coming back to The Vortex plot, I'm hoping we see a replacement in 2026. I really really hope that the park was happy with SSBR and they decide to partner with Vekoma again for a Vortex replacement. I would enjoy seeing a coaster like Fonix as our new loopers successor to Vortex. If they are going for a dive coasters, why not do a vekoma tilt model just to make it unique from what other parks in the chain already have? Oh but really wild idea, maybe they can give us one of those new Vekoma lunched Flying Coasters... So many possibilities! 

But I'm also 100% behind a Mach Extreme Spinner. (Full circuit, not a shuttle coaster due to capacity issues). I have never ridden time traveler but I hear so many amazing things about it and ride to happiness and it would be something so special and unique for that prime plot of land which currently sits vacant and silent... 

One day the wind will blow again taking the park by storm and The Vortex will have its revenge in a new form... coming to Kings Island spring 2026! 

Fonix looks amazing! 

[3dgyrat]

On 6/11/2024 at 7:38 PM, CorkscrewMcPuke said:

I am going to die on the hill that we are owed a Virginia Reel and a stall that serves elephant ears.

that would make a great addition in coney mall

[DonHelbig]

On 6/11/2024 at 9:13 AM, KI Guy said:

If The Racer were only one track ... 

For 33% of the day, The Racer is only one-track operation with the name not matching the experience that's being delivered. On paper it's an easy budget cut not thinking it impacts the guest experience, but it does. Many of the rides I've taken on The Racer this year during those hours there's been grumbling by guests about only one side running and disappointment over not being able to race against their friends or family members. And things like this factor in when it comes time to renew passes or visit again next year. 

Before looking at what might go in The Vortex spot, let's see The Racer running at full capacity, longer show runs, all of the soft drink stands open, the park operating hours back to what they used to be. When those things are happening, then it's time to look at adding a major new coaster. 

[KI Guy]

Very good point, Don. I had not seen that yet myself.  That's unfortunate for long-time parkgoers who remember better operations, but also more importantly for the park, the newer guests whose opinions of the park are not formed yet.

It's shortsighted to think that things like not racing The Racer or cutting hours here and there don't matter.

[johnjniehaus]

While I still really want to see a new coasters, Don has a great point which is if you can't operate what you already have, maybe you shouldn't be adding more. I totally agree that The Racer not racing is a cheap, unacceptable move. Food and beverage stands should also be open seeing as when operations are limited the lines are extremely long to get a drink or food. I also don't like the fact that two years in a row the park has not been able to get the new additions open for opening weekend. The shows also seem a bit lacking this season. I did enjoy the country crossroads in the festhaus but other shows just don't seem to grab my attention this season. 

[silver2005]

Another fear of getting a new coaster in the current park climate, especially with the merger upcoming, is it might mask the faults of the park and they could use that distraction to further undercut other things.  

[IndyGuy4KI]

2 hours ago, johnjniehaus said:

I also don't like the fact that two years in a row the park has not been able to get the new additions open for opening weekend.

Would you rather not have another coster and two flat rides in our lineup just because they were not ready by opening day? I understand that was the norm for so many years for our park. The industry has changed.

There used to be 5 year plans. I understand it that these small additions are decided 12 or so months before the next season. Not years in advance to get them ready by opening day.  We can learn to live with smaller additions opening around Memorial Day or not get any additions. 

Riding Sol Spin and Soap Box Racers today, I did not care (or see others) that were upset they were not open by their respective season's opening day. 

[KI Guy]

1 hour ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

Would you rather not have another coaster and two flat rides in our lineup just because they were not ready by opening day? I understand that was the norm for so many years for our park. The industry has changed.

Indyguy, if these were the only choices I would go with opening late. They are not the only choices though.

Even if I were to accept the premise that the changes are purely market driven, I still can't let them off the hook. To me Kings Island has had a standard for excellence and it should continue to meet that standard.

Make no mistake, the powers that be have decided to chip away at that standard in hopes of it paying off for them in the short term. They just as easily could have held themselves to that standard by way of increasing prices.

What they're doing a mistake. That is how you become Six Flags.

[RollerColt]

13 hours ago, KI Guy said:

Indyguy, if these were the only choices I would go with opening late. They are not the only choices though.

Even if I were to accept the premise that the changes are purely market driven, I still can't let them off the hook. To me Kings Island has had a standard for excellence and it should continue to meet that standard.

Make no mistake, the powers that be have decided to chip away at that standard in hopes of it paying off for them in the short term. They just as easily could have held themselves to that standard by way of increasing prices.

What they're doing a mistake. That is how you become Six Flags.

Sadly the prices have also gone up, but the quality is decaying… 

@DonHelbig’s post does make me nervous about the future a bit in regards to our park. 

[Tr0y]

People don’t realize how cheap Kings Island passes are compared to other parks. 

Season Passes:

Holiday World Regular season pass-$200

Busch Gardens Tampa Silver Pass-$195

Dollywood Silver Pass-$174

Kings Island Gold Pass-$150

[silver2005]

^The parks you listed do a LOT of things better than KI.   Sub $200 is a steal for a DW season pass. 

[DispatchMaster]

On 6/17/2024 at 3:50 PM, DonHelbig said:

When those things are happening, then it's time to look at adding a major new coaster. 

Yes, and from my perspective, focus on these things went out the window as soon and Zimmerman and Fisher took the helm, and there is absolutely no indication that will change for the better following the merger.

19 hours ago, johnjniehaus said:

if you can't operate what you already have, maybe you shouldn't be adding more.

Agreed, and this is the thing I always mention to folks who claim that "Park X is running out of room", most commonly with regard to Cedar Point. That park has more than enough room given the other constraints - operations, maintenance, etc.

14 hours ago, KI Guy said:

To me Kings Island has had a standard for excellence and it should continue to meet that standard.

Most parks are open through October, and open back up in early May, or in the case of KI, late April. It's simply not feasible to have every new attraction ready within ~5 months from breaking ground, and that is especially true of parks that have winter weather to contend with. Over the course of an attraction's, say, 50-year life span, no one will care that the ride was open for only 99.7% of that time span rather than 100%.

[KI Guy]

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

21 hours ago, johnjniehaus said:

if you can't operate what you already have, maybe you shouldn't be adding more.

Agreed, and this is the thing I always mention to folks who claim that "Park X is running out of room", most commonly with regard to Cedar Point. That park has more than enough room given the other constraints - operations, maintenance, etc.

Yes, but historically with the possible exception of the CBS years (2005-06??) they've both added additions on time and maintained what they had well. It's concerning because they have always done both assumably to compete but now it's become an "either/or"? I assume they did both in the past because that was best for the business; why is it now decided that only one is necessary?

1 hour ago, DispatchMaster said:

Most parks are open through October, and open back up in early May, or in the case of KI, late April. It's simply not feasible to have every new attraction ready within ~5 months from breaking ground, and that is especially true of parks that have winter weather to contend with.

You know that this is not how they have to add things. Diamondback opened in 2009. Construction started with tree clearing in 2007 and some footers were poured by opening day 2008. The timeline for Mystic Timbers was similar.

To be clear, I don't fault the operators/management of KI. It's not their fault if people in Charlotte are slow to make decisions or decide that opening new attractions after the park's opening day is now acceptable.

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

4 minutes ago, KI Guy said:

You know that this is not how they have to add things. Diamondback opened in 2009. Construction started with tree clearing in 2007 and some footers were poured by opening day 2008. The timeline for Mystic Timbers was similar. To be clear, I don't fault the operators/management of KI. They have their hands tied if the people in Charlotte are slow to make decisions or decide to purposely open new attractions after opening day.

I don't think CF executives are purposely waiting until after opening day to open new attractions seeing that both Wild Mouse and TT2 at Cedar Point opened on their target opening dates and KD is already well underway on their 2025 coaster likely targeting a March 2025 opening. Sometimes delays happen in construction especially in a world with part shortages and shipping delays.