Discussing Land and Space in and around Vortex

[SonofBaconator]

@purdude86

It depends on how much the park wants to spend. I love Dive Machines but I would want one with great theming and at least 3-4 inversions which would be pricy considering the cost of steel.

[purdude86]

On 7/10/2020 at 2:12 PM, brenthodge said:

Seeing it in person now I suggest nothing but a lake and green space. It’s beautiful seeing from Beast load  across open space all the way to coney. There is undeveloped land all over this place. I’d hope they finish clearing, create a water feature that brings Beast station back to its original design AND gives that marque ride the visibility it has earned. OR incorporate a flume ride into the lake going back into the woods trying to keep as much or the tree line as possible as a nod to Kentons. It would be cool if they could make it look like it connects to the Diamondabak lake and really make water the centerpiece of (wait for it) RIVERtown. Enough coasters for now. Really, didn’t we just get one????

That would look great and a log flume would fit well with the Coney area too. Even if they do add a coaster there later love to see a water feature added into there. and even more so if they could extend it into The Beast and get the water around the station and turn out again.

18 hours ago, BringBackOurEagles said:

YES I said something similar a few pages back. Fill ‘er in! Screamin swing over the water back where Vortex’s station used to be. And eventually they could develop a ride that interacts with the water from the rivertown side if they wanted to. 

I would love to see the park get a Screamin' Swing but not sure about that spot.  My top choice would be to tear down the Crypt building, leave the queue in place with the mine theming and alter the outside a bit to fit with a mine. Then have it themed to a mining rig. Rivertown could use a flat or two. 

If not there it woudl fit well thematically into Area 72

[KI Guy]

2 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

It depends on how much the park wants to spend. I love Dive Machines but I would want one with great theming and at least 3-4 inversions which would be pricy considering the cost of steel.

IF, (big if), the park wants to use the old Vortex site for a coaster I don't see a dive machine (or any other B&M):

1. Orion was a very expensive addition at $30 million.

2. Dive Machines are quite expensive. The last two Cedar Fair purchased, Valravyn and Yukon Striker were around $25 Million. If KI is set on a Dive Machine I would think they would have to wait a full 5 years to 2025 to spread the cost. Think of Diamondback ($22M) in '09 and Banshee in '14 ($24M).

3. I doubt the park wants to have that prime land sitting vacant for more than necessary.

4. I think the most likely option factoring in all of this is a family coaster or a ground up RMC with a cost of $15 million or less. I don't spend as much time with family coasters so I can't give a good example. For a ground up RMC, a great example is Zadra built last year with a cost equivalent between $15-16 million. If they are trying to make a true replacement for Vortex I'd imagine this is the more likely of the two.

**By the way, the park did something similar with the $24 million Banshee and the $15 million Mystic Timbers following.

[JimParker85]

It's crazy to me how "inexpensive" all things considered, that RMCs are. The rumored cost for the Iron Gwazi is around 10 million and, as you said, Zadra, the first ground up I-Box RMC, was in the 16 million range. If Cedar Fair survives but cuts back on capital expenditures for a few seasons, I'd think they should look to RMC once again. Certainly The Vortex spot, from a "best case scenario" perspective, looks like a great place for an RMC. 

[brenthodge]

3 hours ago, JimParker85 said:

It's crazy to me how "inexpensive" all things considered, that RMCs are. The rumored cost for the Iron Gwazi is around 10 million and, as you said, Zadra, the first ground up I-Box RMC, was in the 16 million range. If Cedar Fair survives but cuts back on capital expenditures for a few seasons, I'd think they should look to RMC once again. Certainly The Vortex spot, from a "best case scenario" perspective, looks like a great place for an RMC. 

“On the banks of The Beast Canyon Lake, Peters Outdoor Adventures  has set up shop in the old abandoned factory. Book your off road, 4 wheeling adventure today and explore the backwoods of Miami Woods like never before. Climb aboard your off road vehicle and buckle up for a straight ahead launch into a twisting, exhilarating run through the woods with a final double splash down through the lake. This RMC, single rail  coaster will be an exciting adventure that the family can experience together.”  RMC single rail, launched. Themed station house references Peters Cartridge building. Track wrapped through the woods (minimal tree removal) Maybe even interaction with Beast ( the immersion has already been broken with Orion) Add lake where Vortex was. Splash down out of the woods “Bounces” across the water like an off road ride. Access ride from the service road behind beast (remove/replace slaughter house with a better themed building or incorporate haunt maze space into new themed “factory” building). Just a thought. 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

1 hour ago, brenthodge said:

“On the banks of The Beast Canyon Lake, Peters Outdoor Adventures  has set up shop in the old abandoned factory. Book your off road, 4 wheeling adventure today and explore the backwoods of Miami Woods like never before. Climb aboard your off road vehicle and buckle up for a straight ahead launch into a twisting, exhilarating run through the woods with a final double splash down through the lake. This RMC, single rail  coaster will be an exciting adventure that the family can experience together.”  RMC single rail, launched. Themed station house references Peters Cartridge building. Track wrapped through the woods (minimal tree removal) Maybe even interaction with Beast ( the immersion has already been broken with Orion) Add lake where Vortex was. Splash down out of the woods “Bounces” across the water like an off road ride. Access ride from the service road behind beast (remove/replace slaughter house with a better themed building or incorporate haunt maze space into new themed “factory” building). Just a thought. 

So the entrance would be on the left side of Beast? Where would the station go? Would you have to go under The Beast to access the station? Idk if we'll get a single rail unless we get the first Trex which I find unlikely. I think a ground up wooden coaster (topper track) would fit the theme. I like that factory theme idea. 

[brenthodge]

2 hours ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

So the entrance would be on the left side of Beast? Where would the station go? Would you have to go under The Beast to access the station? Idk if we'll get a single rail unless we get the first Trex which I find unlikely. I think a ground up wooden coaster (topper track) would fit the theme. I like that factory theme idea. 

Didn’t get that deep into the planning, but probably the “entrance” would be to the right of The Beast entrance. At some point you would probably have to cross under the track to get to the lake side. The factory would be by the lake. I’d have to look at a real overhead to see where or if it would work, but just and idea. I love the single rain since the “off road” theme was used with rail blazer, they’ve already gone that way. Add some “natural elements back in the woods like a tunnel, waterfall and rock bridge to over under. Almost like Hagrids at universal where the track stays low and uses the natural terrain with a few overbanked pops herd and there to simulate trail riding. 

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

How would they be able to fill the land up with water? Would a large water fountain do the trick? Idk how it is done.

[brenthodge]

1 hour ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

How would they be able to fill the land up with water? Would a large water fountain do the trick? Idk how it is done.

Not sure what you mean by the question. It’s already a natural depression. You either go with a natural pond and compact the clay soil to hold water, or line it with concrete or an impermeable vinyl liner. Either if those bodies of water could have a large fountain installed in them fir aeration, insect control and aesthetics. 

[Driver8rws]

I'd love to see an Intamin multi launch "spider web" coaster like Taron at PhantasiaLand in Germany!   It is a SUPER FUN, exhilarating ride that makes you want to ride again and again!   Great theming like Taron would be awesome as well.

Unfortunately it's probably going to be 4 years or so till they get anything new after this downturn...

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

Here's an idea I just came up with. A Mack multilaunch coaster using the terrain (more like what Helix and Time Traveler does) and give it a Disco theme. Think about it! The theme could be a disco party gone wild and the station/queue could have disco music playing and maybe a disco ball with lights! At night this ride would come to life with a nice light package and the lights/disco ball in the station maybe even a way to turn the regular station lights into blacklight!

[FUN&ONLY!]

12 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

Here's an idea I just came up with. A Mack multilaunch coaster using the terrain (more like what Helix and Time Traveler does) and give it a Disco theme. Think about it! The theme could be a disco party gone wild and the station/queue could have disco music playing and maybe a disco ball with lights! At night this ride would come to life with a nice light package and the lights/disco ball in the station maybe even a way to turn the regular station lights into blacklight!

I don’t know how I feel about a disco theme. I am afraid it might look too tacky like the launch coaster right next door. I think the park should make the ride fit the theme of Coney Mall, so it ties in nicely. Honestly, they could just go for an old-school theme and have it playing off the other existing and defunct rides in Coney Mall (think the interior of Coney Bar-B-Q but on a larger scale). Like you said, a nice lighting package would look really good on the ride, and it would fit in so well with all of the other Coney Mall attractions that are already illuminated at night. Coney Mall has a cool night time vibe, and a good lighting package like on Hangtime would make it just that much better.

[tigellinus]

Grab a Snickers 

[FUN&ONLY!]

Just now, tigellinus said:

Grab a Snickers 

This is so true to be honest.

[IndyGuy4KI]

Whatever they put there, I do not think the entrance to the ride will be in Coney. I see it being across from BLSC's entrance area.

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

Just now, IndyGuy4KI said:

Whatever they put there, I do not think the entrance to the ride will be in Coney, I see it being across from BLSC's entrance area.

The issue I see in that is that the land is not flat there. In fact, that is where the valley is. Now, the solution in that is that they make the pathway a bridge and maybe have the coaster go over and under it (maybe a batwing element). 

7 minutes ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

I don’t know how I feel about a disco theme. I am afraid it might look too tacky like the launch coaster right next door. I think the park should make the ride fit the theme of Coney Mall, so it ties in nicely. Honestly, they could just go for an old-school theme and have it playing off the other existing and defunct rides in Coney Mall (think the interior of Coney Bar-B-Q but on a larger scale). Like you said, a nice lighting package would look really good on the ride, and it would fit in so well with all of the other Coney Mall attractions that are already illuminated at night. Coney Mall has a cool night time vibe, and a good lighting package like on Hangtime would make it just that much better.

Idk what name or theme would be the best fit for a coaster that doesn't sound too cheesy. Maybe a car like theme like what Lightning Rod has? That would kinda work being right next to KMAA. 

[FUN&ONLY!]

9 minutes ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

Whatever they put there, I do not think the entrance to the ride will be in Coney. I see it being across from BLSC's entrance area.

I could see them making it a part of Rivertown, but I couldn’t see them putting the entrance across from Backlot Stunt Coaster. The midway is already super compact, and unless they widen it, I feel like it will be a major bottleneck. Also, like @Hawaiian Coasters 325 said, there is a decent valley there, so they would need to build an elevated pathway leading to to the queue though an element under the pathway would be pretty cool.

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

Where would the station go? I could see them putting the station where Vortex's station was and having the elevated pathway go through the area and the turnstiles being near the station. They could have some elements going over and under that pathway making for some nice photo/video opportunities. One downside would be that the entrance and exit would be fairly fair apart. 

[FUN&ONLY!]

10 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

Where would the station go? I could see them putting the station where Vortex's station was and having the elevated pathway go through the area and the turnstiles being near the station. They could have some elements going over and under that pathway making for some nice photo/video opportunities. One downside would be that the entrance and exit would be fairly fair apart. 

If they wanted to put the ride in Coney Mall, I think they would probably put the entrance and station near where Vortex’s entrance was. If they choose to put the ride in Rivertown, I could see them maybe taking out the arcade and putting the entrance by The Beast. If I am being honest, Rivertown needs a LITTLE more love than Coney Mall (which looks really good now), and with a new Rivertown attraction, they could maybe repaint The Beast’s dilapidated station and give it some love and give Diamondback a repaint. The area where The Beast is does kind of look a little bit ugly with the arcade and the backside of Tomb Raider, but that is just my opinion. I would love for a mini renovation of that nice little area.

[SonofBaconator]

The fact that the antique cars cut into the Coney Mall midway should be some proof that they wouldn't build another coaster station in that area. Son of Beast's station was built elevated over a valley so I don't see why it couldn't be done again. I think the midway between Coney Mall and Rivertown could be reworked to allow for a coaster  The BLSC plaza is huge and takes up a ton of space so I could see them sacrificing that space for a modified midway.

[DeltaFlyer]

The entire plot of land has been seeded and straw applied. If you needed any more indication that it is going to be several years before a replacement is built, that was it. 

[disco2000]

24 minutes ago, DeltaFlyer said:

The entire plot of land has been seeded and straw applied. If you needed any more indication that it is going to be several years before a replacement is built, that was it. 

Land being seeded and strawed is not necessarily an indicator of how long a plot of land will sit vacant.  Per stormwater regulations, any disturbed land that will be left idle for more than 21 days needs to be seeded and strawed, even if they plan on doing construction 25 days from now...contractors complain all the time about that timeframe on active sites and have been known to occasionally move some dirt around to "loophole" that regulation LOL.

When they performed the seed and straw may be more of an indicator, except for when it isn't.

If they did seed and straw within 2 days of them last disturbing the land, it may imply that it will be sitting idle for more than 21 days but less than a year, so 22 days from now they could begin construction...

If they did seed and straw within 7 days of them last disturbing the land, it may imply that it will be sitting idle for more than 1 year.

So the bigger question could be when was the last earth movement activities and how many days between it and seed and straw?  But even then there are exclusions - is any of the soil considered stockpile or was any of this work near a stream as different time frames and intervals sitting idle come into play.  Could seed and straw simply be the final "deliverable" of the demolition contract and the timeframe was accelerated so they could get off the site and get paid?

TL:DR - More than likely it will be years, but seed and straw by itself is not an indicator.  Any disturbed land sitting idle more than 21 days is required to be seeded and strawed.

[KI Guy]

5 hours ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

Whatever they put there, I do not think the entrance to the ride will be in Coney. I see it being across from BLSC's entrance area.

Do you say that because of how the new Antique Cars cut into the Coney midway?

[DeltaFlyer]

25 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

TL:DR - More than likely it will be years, but seed and straw by itself is not an indicator.  Any disturbed land sitting idle more than 21 days is required to be seeded and strawed.

You have a fair point- wouldn’t Firehawk’s plot of land have sat idle for more than 21 days but less than a year?

[IndyGuy4KI]

58 minutes ago, KI Guy said:

Do you say that because of how the new Antique Cars cut into the Coney midway?

Sort of. I think having an tall inversion where the Vortex station used to be would look good right there and look cool right behind SR&R. Vortex did not have much of a queue. A new ride will need a much bigger queue.

I can see them wanting to have the queue come in the middle of the ride and across from the BLSC plaza would do the trick and I feel be most inviting there.  They can expand the whole pathway to help with traffic flow.

This is just IndyGuys vision, I may be totally off.

 

[FUN&ONLY!]

I don’t know how this is going to be received, but I think Kings Island should focus on putting their next major coaster in Action Zone rather than replacing Vortex. Action Zone needs a lot more love than Coney Mall and Rivertown which are probably already the two most crowded areas of the park. I think that with a new Action Zone addition, the park can completely re-theme the area and make it look really nice. We have seen Cedar Fair recently do this at Carowinds with Blue Ridge Junction, Canada’s Wonderland with Frontier Canada, and now at Kings Island with Area 72. In their 2019 4th quarter conference call, Cedar Fair mentioned that they want to start doing even larger investments that will take longer to pay off (new themed areas). After this, Carowinds even sent out a survey to guests about what new themed land they would like to see in the park. This was Cedar Fair’s plan before they were hit hard by COVID-19, but I would love to see them follow through with it.

[Hawaiian Coasters 325]

22 minutes ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

I don’t know how this is going to be received, but I think Kings Island should focus on putting their next major coaster in Action Zone rather than replacing Vortex. Action Zone needs a lot more love than Coney Mall and Rivertown which are probably already the two most crowded areas of the park. I think that with a new Action Zone addition, the park can completely re-theme the area and make it look really nice. We have seen Cedar Fair recently do this at Carowinds with Blue Ridge Junction, Canada’s Wonderland with Frontier Canada, and now at Kings Island with Area 72. In their 2019 4th quarter conference call, Cedar Fair mentioned that they want to start doing even larger investments that will take longer to pay off (new themed areas). After this, Carowinds even sent out a survey to guests about what new themed land they would like to see in the park. This was Cedar Fair’s plan before they were hit hard by COVID-19, but I would love to see them follow through with it.

Then what would they do with The Vortex land? It can't just be a massive hole forever. I kinda think a FF type attraction, but that would be kinda hard to do with the terrain there. 

[gforce1994]

48 minutes ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

I don’t know how this is going to be received, but I think Kings Island should focus on putting their next major coaster in Action Zone rather than replacing Vortex. Action Zone needs a lot more love than Coney Mall and Rivertown which are probably already the two most crowded areas of the park. I think that with a new Action Zone addition, the park can completely re-theme the area and make it look really nice. We have seen Cedar Fair recently do this at Carowinds with Blue Ridge Junction, Canada’s Wonderland with Frontier Canada, and now at Kings Island with Area 72. In their 2019 4th quarter conference call, Cedar Fair mentioned that they want to start doing even larger investments that will take longer to pay off (new themed areas). After this, Carowinds even sent out a survey to guests about what new themed land they would like to see in the park. This was Cedar Fair’s plan before they were hit hard by COVID-19, but I would love to see them follow through with it.

They can’t just build in Action Zone, the soil is weak in sections. Project costs would skyrocket due to deeper than normal piers for the foundation.

Regards to Vortex site, the ride that needs to go in there is the largest available ride, not the ride that best suits the KI coaster collection.

[silver2005]

^You mean like that longest inverted coaster in the world that they 'just built' in Action Zone?

[coaster sally]

10 minutes ago, silver2005 said:

^You mean like that longest inverted coaster in the world that they 'just built' in Action Zone?

No one really cares about "longest inverted coaster".