Six Flags and Cedar Fair Merge

[disco2000]

5 minutes ago, KIghostguy said:

I thought this was an interesting Richard Zimmerman quote from the conference call transcript at https://seekingalpha.com/article/4647047-cedar-fair-l-p-fun-six-flags-mergers-of-equals-conference-transcript.

"One of the things that excites me is somebody who came into the Cedar Fair organization from the Paramount side understanding the movie studio and the drive for exploiting IP and enhancing that along with Six Flags. Looking at the Warner Brothers, we have – as we have said on prepared remarks, really three powerful IPs that we can think about how best fit within the portfolio Peanuts, DC Comics and of course the Warner Brothers connection. I am so excited to think about how we could potentially roll out and enhance the guest experience in all our regions and rethink how we use IP. IP is incredibly important, differentiator in the minds of our consumers and I think our ability to unlock how we look at that in the future gets me really excited and I know for our internal design staff on both sides. As we think about how to plot and plan the guest experience going forward, I think our challenge is working close – is to work more closely with the holders of the IP and think about how we might both benefit from a closer association."

Unfortunately, this seems like we will likely see DC implemented eventually at the legacy Cedar Fair parks.

I agree.  I think in the 5-10 year period, CF parks will have more of a SIX look/feel than the other way around.

Especially if WB ever figures out how to properly implement the DC line, a former Paramount person will jump on the opportunity to take full advantage of that IP as a way to prove to Paramount that it could have been done successfully.

[Benjamin22]

7 minutes ago, KIghostguy said:

I thought this was an interesting Richard Zimmerman quote from the conference call transcript at https://seekingalpha.com/article/4647047-cedar-fair-l-p-fun-six-flags-mergers-of-equals-conference-transcript.

"One of the things that excites me is somebody who came into the Cedar Fair organization from the Paramount side understanding the movie studio and the drive for exploiting IP and enhancing that along with Six Flags. Looking at the Warner Brothers, we have – as we have said on prepared remarks, really three powerful IPs that we can think about how best fit within the portfolio Peanuts, DC Comics and of course the Warner Brothers connection. I am so excited to think about how we could potentially roll out and enhance the guest experience in all our regions and rethink how we use IP. IP is incredibly important, differentiator in the minds of our consumers and I think our ability to unlock how we look at that in the future gets me really excited and I know for our internal design staff on both sides. As we think about how to plot and plan the guest experience going forward, I think our challenge is working close – is to work more closely with the holders of the IP and think about how we might both benefit from a closer association."

Unfortunately, this seems like we will likely see DC implemented eventually at the legacy Cedar Fair parks.

Welp, all I can say is that fans need to be vocal about if they want that tacky carnival super hero crap in their parks or not. I for one will NOT go to the park if they have a DC themed area. 

[rlentless]

Not sure of how long the Snoopy IP is signed for by CF.  But I think it would be good to keep the 'Camp Snoopy' area they planned with the new coaster.  Then convert the remaining kids area to 'Looney Toons'.

I am on the fence with Action Zone.  But if it can done correctly like Universal's "Islands of Adventure".  I think it could be a good thing.  I mean the area still seems like a Paramount leftover . . the old KI Safari Village feel is already gone.

But I agree leave the rest of the park alone.  Keep our traditions.

[KIBeast]

57 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

While that may be true, once a corporation gets too big, the bean counters start to use different metrics.

They may decide on a gross revenue number threshold and get rid of any park under that number regardless of their profitability margin.

Many corporations get rid of product lines that are no longer "a strategic fit" but are very profitable.

Look at P&G as an example.  Over the last 10 years, they sold off over half of their brands, many of them profitable product lines, as they were no longer a strategic fit moving forward - AKA the annual revenue was below an arbitrarily set threshold.

Duracell is a $2Billion/year unit that is very profitable that P&G sold off.  If it wasn't, Warren Buffet wouldn't have bought it.

GE is another.  They sold off their profitable appliance division many years ago.  So while you can still buy a GE appliance, it is actually built by someone else and the terms of the sale allowed them to continue to use the GE name for X number of years.  GE is currently going through another restructuring and will be selling off their profitable healthcare line.

So just because a smaller park enjoys some of the highest profit margins in the company doesn't make it immune to being sold off or otherwise liquidated.

At the same time, we have no information that indicates any parks will be sold off. They may feel all of them can be managed under one umbrella, although none of us would be surprised if they did.

[Benjamin22]

1 minute ago, KIBeast said:

At the same time, we have no information that indicates any parks will be sold off. They may feel all of them can be managed under one umbrella, although none of us would be surprised if they did.

Based off the wording during the Q&A they immediately don't seem to have any plans to sell off any of the parks, as Richard mentioned it's hard to grow your revenue when you sell off parks. That being said, if there certain parks that don't integrate well for whatever or suddenly just don't make sense in the long term vision of the chain then I suppose they could be sold off. However the mentality seems to be that each park is a unique, irreplaceable asset that they would like to keep. 

[SonofBaconator]

Here’s my theory for what’s going to happen in the Mid Atlantic market. The chain is going to liquidate Six Flags America and shift their focus onto Kings Dominion which will become a test park. You will start to see WB IPs emerge such as Looney Tunes and possible DC. If they see significant positive feedback from guests, that’ll give them the green light to move ahead with other parks. That’s just my thought process

[Gordon Bombay]

14 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

Here’s my theory for what’s going to happen in the Mid Atlantic market. The chain is going to liquidate Six Flags America and shift their focus onto Kings Dominion which will become a test park. You will start to see WB IPs emerge such as Looney Tunes and possible DC. If they see significant positive feedback from guests, that’ll give them the green light to move ahead with other parks. That’s just my thought process

Kings Dominion: “Finally, Batman Knight Flight will be where it was always intended!”

[SonofBaconator]

1 minute ago, Gordon Bombay said:

Kings Dominion: “Finally, Batman Knight Flight will be where it was always intended!”

I-305 could be rebranded to DC, same with FoF and BLSC

[Sonofbeast2.0]

8 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

I-305 could be rebranded to DC, same with FoF and BLSC

Tbh... I would not be opposed to a DC retheming of Backlot... 

[Gordon Bombay]

Aquaman’s Car Rental Adventure Sponsored by Hertz.

[Vortex]

I happened goto Six Flags Great America this year. I was told Six Flags didn’t renew the license for Hanna-Barbera. They had a small kids area  not themed anymore. So it looks like just Looney Tunes and DC.

[RollerColt]

1 hour ago, SonofBaconator said:

I-305 could be rebranded to DC, same with FoF and BLSC

If they rebrand I-305, it would be met with heavy pushback from the local community. Dale Earnhardt means a lot to them. 

[FUN&ONLY!]

I am very worried that Kings Island is headed back to the Paramount days but with even tackier themes. I don’t even know where Kings Island could put a DC Universe in the park without ruining the themes of classic attractions. Action Zone seems expendable, but I just cannot see the Banshee name and theme biting the dust. It is probably one of the best names and logos for any ride in the world. All other areas of the park are classic and their themes should not be touched by DC in any way. Vortex also deserves an originally themed replacement and not some DC comics themed rollercoaster.

[rlentless]

So do you think KI's new name will be something like "King's Island - A SixFlags Theme Park"?  Similar to Great Escape??

[Imperial79]

Here is this also, Universal thinking about buying Warner Bros? I wonder how this will affect the IP’s that SIX/CF can use, and what would happen if they did buy WB. 
https://insidethemagic.net/2023/10/universal-reportedly-eyes-purchase-of-rival-studio-warner-bros-jnw1mmb/

[DiamondbackFan]

2 minutes ago, Imperial79 said:

Here is this also, Universal thinking about buying Warner Bros? I wonder how this will affect the IP’s that SIX/CF can use, and what would happen if they did buy WB. 
https://insidethemagic.net/2023/10/universal-reportedly-eyes-purchase-of-rival-studio-warner-bros-jnw1mmb/

No impact to the Six Flags license deal. Also, insidethemagic.net is a clickbait site.

[Imperial79]

4 minutes ago, DiamondbackFan said:

No impact to the Six Flags license deal. Also, insidethemagic.net is a clickbait site.

Oh okay. Thanks 

[DonHelbig]

32 minutes ago, rlentless said:

So do you think KI's new name will be something like "King's Island - A SixFlags Theme Park"?  Similar to Great Escape??

I think so. 
I went to Great Escape several times when I lived in Albany, NY in 2006-2007. Enjoyed it.

[KIBOB]

I'm still in shock over this, but will be cautiously optimistic. I actually moved from the Cincinnati area to Oregon last year, so KI has become a once, maybe twice a year thing when I visit family, so I certainly will be following the forums for any changes.

One of the things that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet is that Jeff Siebert (and not entirely sure, but I'm guessing a few other alumni) will now be under the same employment umbrella as those at KI.

[WoodVengeance]

Apparently the merger deal is supposed to close in early 2024 if it goes through, so it seems likely we won't see any notable changes for the 2024 season. I think 2025 will probably be when we start seeing minor changes at the park, like new season pass options with some Six Flags technology introduced and/or Kings Island getting a logo change and being labeled as "Kings Island: A Six Flags park" like what Great Escape does. I think we could also see Looney Tunes and DC merchandise being introduced as well in stores and as game prizes. I think 2026 and later will be when we see significant additions and changes.

[homestar92]

I think a lot of the sentiments I've seen here to the effect of "person in my social circle who doesn't even like theme parks has a negative opinion of Six Flags" doesn't realize that these people probably have an even less informed opinion of Six Flags than you do, because their opinion is likely just what they've heard from you. People who never go to parks aside from their local one only know about other parks from the things that their friends who do go to other parks say about them. Enthusiasts broadly seem to dislike Six Flags, so normal people who occasionally talk to enthusiasts end up with a negative opinion of Six Flags. It's really just a feedback loop.

Six Flags operates *a lot* of parks and many of those parks feel very different from each other. Some SIX parks are indeed dirty and poorly operated, but not all. Six Flags does many things well. Their Flash Pass system is far more elegant than Fast Lane, and it works well at every park. The same cannot be said of Fast Lane (ever tried using it at Cedar Point? Enjoy somehow still waiting an hour after paying hundreds of dollars).

The idea that *every* Cedar Fair park is always clean and always has great operations isn't any more true than the idea that Six Flags are all dirty and mismanaged. Six Flags Great America is one of my absolute favorite amusement parks anywhere, and they've won awards for their cleanliness. I'm also a big fan of Darien Lake. Both are SIX properties. Coincidentally, "dirty and poorly operated" was my experience when I visited Worlds of Fun, which is a Cedar Fair park. Six Flags also has two different parks with animal safari-type exhibits, so they have the experience and expertise to bring that back if they wanted to. Six Flags has IPs that are far more relevant to children than Snoopy (as much as I personally LOVE Snoopy, he's not culturally relevant anymore outside of the Christmas special).

Kings Island is going to be just fine, and I don't know that we have any reason to believe that Six Flags will even be added to its name (aside from perhaps "Kings Island - a Six Flags park". Both chains have things that they do well and I really do think their collective expertise can really help both chains. Remember, Six Flags and Cedar Fair didn't compete with each other outside of California. But they *do* compete with the likes of Disney, Universal, SeaWorld, and other destinations, and this merger gives them access to the resources to actually stand a chance at competing with those chains. If anything, this has created more *actual* competition even though there are fewer competitors in the game.

[Joshua]

I'll try to be optimistic, but mergers make me nervous. As a movie fan, the mergers of 20th Century Fox with Disney, ATT and later Discovery with Warner Bros. have been painful to watch, particularly with the way David Zaslov is currently running WB. And there are further rumors of Disney and Warner Bros. Discovery being sold to NBCUniversal and Apple. To tell you the truth, it is pretty weird watching these big corporations swallow each other up. 

[homestar92]

7 hours ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

I am very worried that Kings Island is headed back to the Paramount days but with even tackier themes. I don’t even know where Kings Island could put a DC Universe in the park without ruining the themes of classic attractions. Action Zone seems expendable, but I just cannot see the Banshee name and theme biting the dust. It is probably one of the best names and logos for any ride in the world. All other areas of the park are classic and their themes should not be touched by DC in any way. Vortex also deserves an originally themed replacement and not some DC comics themed rollercoaster.

Keep in mind, Six Flags Great America (one of the most "Kings Island-esque" parks in their chain) retained its distinct themed areas long after the merger, having only lost one of them to a licensed IP (Yankee Harbor becoming DC Universe) almost four decades after being acquired. They also added a new themed area, Southwest Territory, which fits perfectly in line with Marriott's original vision for that park's themes. Six Flags doesn't just rip out all the history and replace it with copy/pasted IP-based attractions.  I would argue that Six Flags has respected the themes of that park more than KI's recent owners have respected some of our park's themes. I mean, Mini Coopers and a helicopter with machine guns in the "classic American amusement park" section? South-American ruins themed coaster and a Mexican restaurant in Oktoberfest? Banshee and Bat in the "movie studio backlot" section? It's not like Paramount and Cedar Fair were always 100% in line with the "theme" of our park either.

DC Comics and Looney Tunes can coexist in the kids' area. Camp Snoopy being a subsection of Planet Snoopy seems like a good groundwork for this. And it's not unprecedented - Hannah-Barbera Land and Nickelodeon Central coexisted for years in what is now Planet Snoopy. We all love Snoopy here, but that's because we're used to it. To our kids, snoopy is just the dog from Kings Island and that Christmas special. There was wailing and gnashing of teeth when Snoopy came to Kings Island and it seems it's the same thing again now that there is the *possibility* (nothing confirmed at all) of it happening again a few years down the road. This could bring Snoopy to Gurnee just as easily as it could bring Bugs Bunny to Mason.

[KI Guy]

For Kings Island in regards to investments I see no reason for optimism regarding this deal:

Kings Island is "tapped out" relative to the large Six Flags parks.

The New Six Flags & Cedar Fair combo will stress revenue growth where there's potential. There's plenty of room to grow Great Adventure, Great America, Magic Mountain, and Fiesta Texas, and Over Texas.

Cedar Point and Kings Island have plateued on revenue except for add-on products like Fast Lane and Meal Plans.

The Paramount Park purchase was disastrous for the likes of Dorney, Valleyfair, and Michigan's Adventure. Meanwhile "the new kids on the block" Kings Island, Carowinds, and Canda's Wonderland were showered with new coasters. Even Cedar Point slowed down a little on new attractions compared to the pre-Paramount era.

I'm less concerned about aspects other than investments:

There's no reason Kings Island's high level of operations performance can't be maintained. Having been to two of the top-tier Six Flags parks, I can say that the good ones are a lot better than a lot of enthusiast circles give them credit for and the "bones" of these parks are just as good as the best Cedar Fair parks. Regarding Six Flags reputation, regular (non-enthusiast) people don't think of Six Flags as low quality. They are just a recognizable name in theme parks.

[IndyGuy4KI]

Thinking of Kings Island with this new merger and possibly going to DC and Looney Tunes. Why not use the DC characters in the whole kids area. Why does it have to be Looney Tunes? I think they would go over better than Looney Tunes. 

I see no reason to put DC in the rest of the park. Although, the only place that might makes sense would be Area 72 with Superman. He is an alien after all.

 

[DiamondbackFan]

It looks like it would be pretty easy to unload the Peanuts IP.  In 2017, the licensing agreement was extended to 2025.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cedar-fair-and-peanuts-worldwide-extend-peanuts-licensing-agreement-to-2025-300517419.html

 

[WoodVengeance]

1 hour ago, DiamondbackFan said:

It looks like it would be pretty easy to unload the Peanuts IP.  In 2017, the licensing agreement was extended to 2025.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cedar-fair-and-peanuts-worldwide-extend-peanuts-licensing-agreement-to-2025-300517419.html

 

I'm hoping it gets extended. With the amount of theming going into Camp Snoopy and SSBR next year, it really would be a waste to see all of that go after two years.

[Captain Nemo]

So my biggest question now is… Six Flags Qiddiya? Clearly it’s happening but it wasn’t featured on the released map of properties.

The topic of that park creates a lot of questions.

[jzarley]

4 hours ago, Captain Nemo said:

So my biggest question now is… Six Flags Qiddiya? Clearly it’s happening but it wasn’t featured on the released map of properties.

The topic of that park creates a lot of questions.

Is it SF owned/developed or is it owned by a 3rd party that is licensing the Six Flags name?
The new SeaWorld “park” (most of it is indoors) in Abu Dhabi is like that—a third party built, owns and operates it, but SEAS licensed their brand and provided consulting during development. If that’s the same scenario in Qiddiya there’s probably no reason for it not to move forward with the merger

[TombRaiderFTW]

15 hours ago, homestar92 said:

I think a lot of the sentiments I've seen here to the effect of "person in my social circle who doesn't even like theme parks has a negative opinion of Six Flags" doesn't realize that these people probably have an even less informed opinion of Six Flags than you do, because their opinion is likely just what they've heard from you. People who never go to parks aside from their local one only know about other parks from the things that their friends who do go to other parks say about them. Enthusiasts broadly seem to dislike Six Flags, so normal people who occasionally talk to enthusiasts end up with a negative opinion of Six Flags. It's really just a feedback loop.

Six Flags operates *a lot* of parks and many of those parks feel very different from each other. Some SIX parks are indeed dirty and poorly operated, but not all. Six Flags does many things well. Their Flash Pass system is far more elegant than Fast Lane, and it works well at every park. The same cannot be said of Fast Lane (ever tried using it at Cedar Point? Enjoy somehow still waiting an hour after paying hundreds of dollars).

The idea that *every* Cedar Fair park is always clean and always has great operations isn't any more true than the idea that Six Flags are all dirty and mismanaged. Six Flags Great America is one of my absolute favorite amusement parks anywhere, and they've won awards for their cleanliness. I'm also a big fan of Darien Lake. Both are SIX properties. Coincidentally, "dirty and poorly operated" was my experience when I visited Worlds of Fun, which is a Cedar Fair park. Six Flags also has two different parks with animal safari-type exhibits, so they have the experience and expertise to bring that back if they wanted to. Six Flags has IPs that are far more relevant to children than Snoopy (as much as I personally LOVE Snoopy, he's not culturally relevant anymore outside of the Christmas special).

Kings Island is going to be just fine, and I don't know that we have any reason to believe that Six Flags will even be added to its name (aside from perhaps "Kings Island - a Six Flags park". Both chains have things that they do well and I really do think their collective expertise can really help both chains. Remember, Six Flags and Cedar Fair didn't compete with each other outside of California. But they *do* compete with the likes of Disney, Universal, SeaWorld, and other destinations, and this merger gives them access to the resources to actually stand a chance at competing with those chains. If anything, this has created more *actual* competition even though there are fewer competitors in the game.

Saying nice (and truthful) things about Six Flags?! Burn the heretic! How dare you interrupt a perfectly good collective meltdown!

Listen, are there reasons to be concerned with this merger? Sure. But everyone judging this situation based on Six Flags of 20 years ago ("Everything is going to get a Six Flags name! Parking lot coasters!") hasn't been paying attention to how Six Flags has handled its most recent acquisitions and additions. And much as homestar said, I think the chain is being judged off its worst examples. The Texas parks, for example, are fantastic, as are Great America and Great Adventure (though admittedly I haven't been to the latter in 10+ years.)

Not to mention, as much damage as Bassoul has done to Six Flags's branding recently, the president is still Zimmerman and the board is still half Cedar Fair. IF people at the top are thinking about doing y'all's worst nightmares and transforming Kings Island into Six Flags America Part II: Electric Boogaloo, there are people with a lot of say who seem to understand branding better. I'm not saying that's impossible; I AM saying that y'all have a precise count on how many chickens you'll have when the eggs haven't hatched yet.

And yeah, Six Flags's FoL system is, as far as I'm concerned, objectively a better system than Fast Lane.