Orion-XL200 Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 It sucks yes. I think a lot of enthusiasts are being incredibly unrealistic/unfair with the criticism on the handling of the situation. No one but the park officials and Zamperla know what conversations have happened behind "closed doors." I don't know what the conversations all included, but I can imagine that more issues had continued to be discovered/fixes not working and Zamperla was hopeful until it became evidently clear that they couldn't get it up and running for the remainder of this season. While there hadn't been a ton of testing throughout the season since the closure, it's not like there hasn't been any type of work happening. Work and conversations have happened. I'm sure there was a NDA for both parties until some sort of final decision could be made about the status of the ride. Either party wasn't required to give daily or even semi-often updates, but they gave updates when it made the best sense in regards to business, because at the end of the day, both parties are businesses. I could be 100% completely wrong and I'd own up to it if I am. I just don't think the whole thoosie attitude about the situation has been fair. It's definitely disappointing but in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it really matters at the end of the day if TT2 was operational more this season than it wasn't. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjniehaus Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 2 hours ago, Orion-XL200 said: I don't think it really matters at the end of the day if TT2 was operational more this season than it wasn't. Enthusiasts are a very rough crowd but I had GP friends threatening to back out of going to CP when they knew it was down. I was told why would we go when the best ride isn't open? I had to convince them that the park was still good enough to justify a 4hr one way drive. My GP Kings Island crowd friends basically weren't going to give the park their business over the entire thing. I convinced them to give the park a chance and I (the enthusiast) happened to make CP $120 in tickets sales that day. I have many family members and friends saying things to me about what a disappointment it is or how it looks really bad on Cedar Point to have additional issues with a ride that already had an major accident. I've got GP people telling me "TT2 is like Son of Beast". It hasn't gone unnoticed by the general public it's just that enthusiasts are the loudest critics and have the platform to voice their opinions. The GP is probably just as upset and in the case of my family and friends who aren't enthusiasts none of them went to CP this year except the couple of guys I work with that I convinced to give the park a shot despite the fact TT2 was closed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyGuy4KI Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 10 hours ago, johnjniehaus said: I convinced them to give the park a chance and I (the enthusiast) happened to make CP $120 in tickets sales that day. I don't think parks understand the influence enthusiasts have on park sales. Yes, there are negative comments sometimes. Some enthusiasts take not seeing the park at its peak potential personally and get extreme with their expectations. That much is very clear. How many times have you seen me on the KIC social channels promoting sweet spot sales, apparel sales, and pass sales? Same with the FB pass holders, and other channels. Parks have no problem displaying Amusement Today's awards. Who do they think votes in those polls? They may not like a few enthusiasts' attitudes or comments, but bottom line they need to play ball if they want to win awards and increase additional park sales. Considering they keep cutting budgets and such, you'd think that they'd be taking any lifeline they can get for free. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjniehaus Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 10 minutes ago, IndyGuy4KI said: I don't think parks understand the influence enthusiasts have on park sales. Yes, there are negative comments sometimes. Some enthusiasts take not seeing the park at its peak potential personally and get extreme with their expectations. That much is very clear. How many times have you seen me on the KIC social channels promoting sweet spot sales, apparel sales, and pass sales? Same with the FB pass holders, and other channels. Parks have no problem displaying Amusement Today's awards. Who do they think votes in those polls? They may not like a few enthusiasts' attitudes or comments, but bottom line they need to play ball if they want to win awards and increase additional park sales. Considering they keep cutting budgets and such, you'd think that they'd be taking any lifeline they can get for free. Well said! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonHelbig Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 2 hours ago, IndyGuy4KI said: I don't think parks understand the influence enthusiasts have on park sales. When parks have the wrong people in key positions, they miss a lot of the right opportunities that would benefit the park. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofBaconator Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 3 hours ago, IndyGuy4KI said: Considering they keep cutting budgets and such, you'd think that they'd be taking any lifeline they can get for free. 48 minutes ago, DonHelbig said: When parks have the wrong people in key positions, they miss a lot of the right opportunities that would benefit the park. Enthusiasts, and my humble opinion, are free advertising. Am I saying you need to go out of your way to keep them happy?-no. That being said, you have to understand who your fans are, and what influence they have on the industry. Enthusiasts are one of the biggest upsell opportunities out there- they can buy add-ons, fast lanes, collectible merchandise, etc. Even what @johnjniehaus did is a prime example of enthusiast upselling: getting non enthusiasts to buy can be a difficult sell. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeastFarmer Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 My non enthusiast friends look to me for advice. With the way things have gone the last two years, I could not recommend the park in good conscience. I have not gone much myself this year. Several did go to KK and or HW instead and three have become passholders at KK instead of KI. Enthusiasts can be bratty and entitled. But you take the good with the bad. Will my paltry example make any noticeable difference? Not really, unless they track lost potential revenue. Kings Island can bring in the crowds consistently because it's a regional tradition/right of passage. Until people stop buying, they will continue to cut the budget. I some ways, I wish the budget cutters could get a federal job and tackle that budget. They have demonstrated they can slash! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion-XL200 Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 16 hours ago, johnjniehaus said: Enthusiasts are a very rough crowd but I had GP friends threatening to back out of going to CP when they knew it was down. I was told why would we go when the best ride isn't open? I had to convince them that the park was still good enough to justify a 4hr one way drive. My GP Kings Island crowd friends basically weren't going to give the park their business over the entire thing. I convinced them to give the park a chance and I (the enthusiast) happened to make CP $120 in tickets sales that day. I have many family members and friends saying things to me about what a disappointment it is or how it looks really bad on Cedar Point to have additional issues with a ride that already had a major accident. I've got GP people telling me "TT2 is like Son of Beast". It hasn't gone unnoticed by the general public it's just that enthusiasts are the loudest critics and have the platform to voice their opinions. The GP is probably just as upset and in the case of my family and friends who aren't enthusiasts none of them went to CP this year except the couple of guys I work with that I convinced to give the park a shot despite the fact TT2 was closed. Any GP folks I know or even the casual enthusiasts, still want to go to CP despite the TT2 status because they enjoy the park and what rides that are offered. My point with that it doesn’t matter the operational status of TT2 at the end of the day because there are far bigger things that matter in the grand scheme of things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beastfan11 Posted August 25 Share Posted August 25 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJSkyFoxx Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 Well, the ride does take 3 launches to complete the circuit so....does this mean the third "launch" of this ride will be successful? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DispatchMaster Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 On 8/23/2024 at 6:38 PM, disco2000 said: Is it time to declare the 1st season of TT2 was a bigger disaster than the 1st season of TTD? LOL How many people were injured during TT2's opening year? How many people, if not for pure, dumb luck, could have been gravely injured or killed as a result of massive, heavy train components flying off of the Lightning Train this season? Even if we arbitrarily focus only on the opening season of each iteration of the ride, it's important to remember that one of the biggest issues with TTD is that it failed in dangerous, unexpected ways that, in one incident (cable fraying), caused injury to riders, and in another incident (decorative tires detached from ride vehicle), could have caused grave injury or death to riders or innocent bystanders. It is only by pure, dumb luck that the latter incident didn't have a catastrophic outcome. So while I can see how the enthusiast crowd, focused solely on whether or not a ride is open, could come to the conclusion that TT2 was a bigger "disaster" than TTD, I think from a ride ownership perspective, it would be much preferred to identify potential issues before they injure or kill guests. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver2005 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 So I have a question regarding trains in a hypothetical situation. Would it be feasible for Zamperla to take off the parts of TTD's old trains that were meant to attach it to the hydraulic launch and replace them with the parts needed for the magnetic launch? Then just refurb the rest of the train since they're known to be able to handle the stresses of the layout? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastercrush Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 Trains built for the 2003 season handled the stress but trains designed 21 years later can't. LMAO @ zamperla. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenageninja Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 12 hours ago, silver2005 said: So I have a question regarding trains in a hypothetical situation. Would it be feasible for Zamperla to take off the parts of TTD's old trains that were meant to attach it to the hydraulic launch and replace them with the parts needed for the magnetic launch? Then just refurb the rest of the train since they're known to be able to handle the stresses of the layout? Possible, maybe, but I'm guessing the Lightning trains are lighter than the original TTD, hence why they can't handle the stresses. The other factor is the restraint systems are totally different, the controls for those systems are probably different. It'd be a pretty major project, likely easier to redesign what they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodVengeance Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 Thundervolt at PNE Playland opened back in July, and that also has the lightning trains. It seems whatever issue is plaguing the trains on TT2 have to be specific to that ride, otherwise Thundervolt wouldn't have opened. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoasterJack Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 49 minutes ago, WoodVengeance said: Thundervolt at PNE Playland opened back in July, and that also has the lightning trains. It seems whatever issue is plaguing the trains on TT2 have to be specific to that ride, otherwise Thundervolt wouldn't have opened. My guess would be the stress isn't nearly as high on the Thundervolt trains compared to TT2 considering the speeds the train travels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastercrush Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 1 hour ago, CoasterJack said: My guess would be the stress isn't nearly as high on the Thundervolt trains compared to TT2 considering the speeds the train travels What enthusiasts are vlogging from playland? We have no idea how it running Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKIDelirium Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 It wouldn't surprise me if Zamperla takes the design modifications they've figured out and simply delivers all-new trains from the factory. It's probably in the contract that they're responsible for the cost here, and waiting on parts from Italy and rebuilding trains on-site is less than ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmartCat7162 Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 16 hours ago, PKIDelirium said: It wouldn't surprise me if Zamperla takes the design modifications they've figured out and simply delivers all-new trains from the factory. It's probably in the contract that they're responsible for the cost here, and waiting on parts from Italy and rebuilding trains on-site is less than ideal. That was one of my main questions is who covers the cost of the "fixes" to get the trains to work. When stuff like this has major issues opening in the first season is it the responsibility of the manufacturer or the park to cover the cost or do they both pay. The park has to pay with lost ticket sales and coming up with ways too appease guests when their star attraction is not working. The park usually I feel like in the GP gets the most public backlash. While the manufacturer gets some, but not all of the backlash from the enthusiasts. I imagine there has to be some sort of warranty, but for some manufacturers I feel like this could be such a heavy burden on them financially to cover the cost of all new trains and could cause them to go bankrupt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenageninja Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 It's 110% on the manufacturer. In fact, the park might even have some terms in the contract that Zamperla owes them x dollars per downtime. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DispatchMaster Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 There are likely performance clauses in the contract, but as far as penalties go, it's not likely to be extreme. It does no one any good for a park/chain to bankrupt a supplier over something like this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outdoor Man Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 Park and manufacturer take on some inherent risk when trying to develop "firsts" as well as "taller/faster." For "firsts": the actual unit never operates like it does in a simulation and reality can be counted on for an infinity of unforeseen challenges- some that result in only partial operation before demolition/removal: see the original Bat. Taller/faster... the stress of navigating a 450' tall coaster with a triple launch system on a train may be one that will cause ongoing problems for the life-cycle of the ride. Technology is better, but failure is also an unfortunate reality; and the taller and faster the coaster is- the greater that risk that it never operates as intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastercrush Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 (edited) 6 hours ago, Outdoor Man said: Park and manufacturer take on some inherent risk when trying to develop "firsts" as well as "taller/faster." For "firsts": the actual unit never operates like it does in a simulation and reality can be counted on for an infinity of unforeseen challenges- some that result in only partial operation before demolition/removal: see the original Bat. Taller/faster... the stress of navigating a 450' tall coaster with a triple launch system on a train may be one that will cause ongoing problems for the life-cycle of the ride. Technology is better, but failure is also an unfortunate reality; and the taller and faster the coaster is- the greater that risk that it never operates as intended. Intamin got the trains right over 20 years ago. We had floppy disk back then lmao Edited August 29 by Coastercrush 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DispatchMaster Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 If by "got the trains right" you mean the trains launched deadly-massive projectiles through the air that only avoided killing guests by pure luck, then yeah, agreed, I guess? (I feel like people who make these "but Intamin..." weren't alive for the first several years of TTD's operation. Either that, or they're just gaslighting people...) Also, getting the trains to speed without issue via hydraulic launch is an entirely different scenario compared to getting them to speed via multiple LSM launches. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJSkyFoxx Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 Just wishing them the best with getting the modifications made to where TT2 can have a successful season next year and everyone who wants to ride it can get a chance to experience it. I greatly miss the heck out of the OG TTD. I'm old enough to remember the announcement. The excitement and the insane thought of "how the heck is this even possible?!" I was a baby coaster enthusiast in high school during that time and I smile fondly at my formative years remembering such a mind blowing announcement. I have many many memories of this ride's growing pains over the years. Especially the first few years of her operations. Heck. Even into 2010/11 I can remember a lot of down time. Some of the funniest and most wonderful memories at Cedar Point revolve around this ride for me. I just want Zamperla AND CP to have their success next year. I want to experience this new iteration the way they envisioned it. Their success is a win for us as a community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outdoor Man Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 17 hours ago, Coastercrush said: Intamin got the trains right over 20 years ago. We had floppy disk back then lmao by that logic, Arrow got the original Bat trains right in 1980 too, as much of the train design for subsequent suspended coasters was similar. However, add in the track and the actual operation of the attraction = fail. I'm guessing in the design phase they had IBM punch cards and a modified Pong game for the motion simulation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjniehaus Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 On 8/29/2024 at 10:44 AM, DispatchMaster said: It does no one any good for a park/chain to bankrupt a supplier over something like this. If only someone was able to convince the parks not to sue togo and arrow over their flunks... imagine them still being in business after all these years! What would they even be building now? How many defunct coasters would still be around? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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