Rides Department Budget Cuts

[FUN&ONLY!]

I came across this post on Facebook, and it makes me kind of sad. I think the ride schedules being cut is getting absolutely out of hand. I know Cedar Fair is doing this to save money on labor and whatnot during a slowdown across the industry, but this is kind of sad from a customer service standpoint. If Kings Island’s hours are from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM, ALL the rides should be open during that timeframe. Take The Racer, for instance. The whole point of the ride is to race against the opposing side. Unless you go on a weekend, don’t expect to get the full ride experience.

Also, where does this stop? The water rides and the train already had their operating hours slashed? What’s going to be next? The Beast closing an hour early? Now that is probably not going to happen, but some smaller rides are certainly at risk.

And these budget cuts are definitely not limited to just the Rides Department. Don’t be surprised if more restaurants or stands are closed on your next visit than you are used to. Unless you visit the park on a weekend of course.

[Kyle100991]

Working an open shift at White Water Canyon hurts now having an hour taken away. It was already an hour shorter than a closing shift.

[disco2000]

As someone here used to say "they already have your money"...

[chad_1138]

^and I am strongly considering them not having my money after this season.  We are a family of 4 with Prestige, Dining, and Drink plans.  So, like $2000.

[IndyGuy4KI]

20 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

As someone here used to say "they already have your money"...

If Nick's ride op source is correct, is the cuts because money is not rolling in this season as much as they wanted? Have we seen the gate prices drop because of this?

[FUN&ONLY!]

45 minutes ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

If Nick's ride op source is correct, is the cuts because money is not rolling in this season as much as they wanted? Have we seen the gate prices drop because of this?

From what I’ve seen, his source is correct. I cannot comment on the water rides, but The Racer did not race this past week and a quarter of Planet Snoopy closed an hour early today.

I think Cedar Fair as a whole is struggling right now. Whether it is Kings Island specifically or not is one thing, but all parks suffer a bit when the chain as a whole is struggling.

[silver2005]

Did I enter an alternate reality when I went on my trip where Kings Dominion sounds like its having a better ride op situation than Kings Island?  

[SonofBaconator]

I’m going to play devil’s advocate for a second. With regards to Planet Snoopy, the dry rides that would be closing early are all in the back corner:

I personally don’t see this change as a huge loss for parents. By 9pm, I think the little ones who ride Beetle Bugs, Peanuts 500, Snoopy’s Junction, and the off-road rally will already be tired.

[FUN&ONLY!]

I do give Kings Island credit for trying to make the ride cuts as unnoticeable as possible. I am sure the park had no choice but to make cuts, and it seems like a lot of thought went into which rides to open late and close early so that guests wouldn’t be too affected. While I do like seeing the park operate at its full potential with every ride open, I am hopeful that operations will be better next year.

[Captain Nemo]

1 hour ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

From what I’ve seen, his source is correct. I cannot comment on the water rides, but The Racer did not race this past week and a quarter of Planet Snoopy closed an hour early today.

I think Cedar Fair as a whole is struggling right now. Whether it is Kings Island specifically or not is one thing, but all parks suffer a bit when the chain as a whole is struggling.

I wouldn't say they are struggling after hearing their recent quarterly.

CF is a fairly conservative company when it comes to their checkbook 

[disco2000]

WindSeeker has been opening at 11am and closing at 9pm as well.

[johnjniehaus]

Haven't they seen how the pay more get less is working for six flags? I understand the water ride and Planet Snoopy cuts but as said already where does this end? Will we eventually be going to a park that half the rides are closed on any given day? Probably the most annoying to me, is The Racer report. Kings Island has maintained a high standard of The Racer actually races (unlike so many other parks that don't actually race their racing coasters) are you telling me I'm going to have to brave the weekend crowd to be able to race on The Racer? Something that you've been able to do at Kings Island for 50 years is now just becoming a weekend thing? I don't profess to know or understand all the economics behind the Cedar Fair decision making process but I do know that I absolutely hate when we get less for either the same amount of money or in the case of six flags they do cuts and then double their admission prices. I do think the park was poorly attended may-june as were other Cedar Fair parks I visited (Carowinds, Kings Dominion, Dorney Park all were not very busy in my opinion) Part of me wonders how much the chaperone policy affected the crowd levels and while they already had the money of season pass holders, those people aren't spending money on the food, games, or at the shops because they aren't there. Also, if they were thinking adventure Port was going to draw masses to the park they were wrong. I love adventure Port but I don't think it was advertised enough and frankly it's not something huge like a new rollercoaster or a one of a kind flat ride (like Canada's Wonderland builds) that people see a picture of and say "yes, I've got to go ride that ride!". Anyway, if the park/Cedar Fair is on hard financial times I really hope they can make the appropriate decisions but cutting rides starts getting into dangerous territory of you get less than you paid for territory which alienates long time park goers and results in backlash and boycotting of the park due to a lesser product. 

[BoddaH1994]

Calling it now. 9:00 closes Su-Thu next year. Fireworks Fridays and Saturdays. 

[BeeastFarmer]

15 minutes ago, johnjniehaus said:

Also, if they were thinking adventure Port was going to draw masses to the park they were wrong. I love adventure Port but I don't think it was advertised enough and frankly it's not something huge like a new rollercoaster or a one of a kind flat ride (like Canada's Wonderland builds) that people see a picture of and say "yes, I've got to go ride that ride!". Anyway, if the park/Cedar Fair is on hard financial times I really hope they can make the appropriate decisions but cutting rides starts getting into dangerous territory of you get less than you paid for territory which alienates long time park goers and results in backlash and boycotting of the park due to a lesser product. 

If only we had a competent Communication Director who could have, well, communicated about Adventure Port. Yes, it might have been last minute.  Yes, it might have been delayed.  But overall it was a great overhaul. But, besides social media posts, it was not promoted well inside the greater Cincinnati area and not at all in other markets outside of the Cincy area. 

Instead of working with some of the parks biggest fans, Choad wants to scurry up and shew Brad away from an interview with the park GM .  But at least he didn't want to try and grab a selfie with the park GM!

The chaperone policy, even if directed by corporate, could have been spun in a way to drive attendance if we had a good wordsmith doing his job. Instead, it was silence.  Maybe Choad was too busy snapping selfies with security?

Because he is either not doing his job, or does not know how to do his job, he should be at the quarterly report for his role in the horrible attendance numbers that will be reported.  I don't think he will want to take selfies with the unit holders!

Edited July 15, 2023 by BeeastFarmer
Typo

[Imperial79]

I don’t think it’s Chad that’s the problem, Disney, Universal and others are having trouble too with attendance, so it’s not just KI or Cedar Fair, I think it’s the weather, wildfires and rude guests/chaperone policy. I’ve read the last few days that Knotts has been packed, so hopefully things are returning to normal there. Anyone remember how the park was during the 2008 recession, how they cut anything back during it? 

[gforce1994]

On 7/15/2023 at 7:37 AM, BeeastFarmer said:

If only we had a competent Communication Director who could have, well, communicated about Adventure Port. Yes, it might have been last minute.  Yes, it might have been delayed.  But overall it was a great overhaul. But, besides social media posts, it was not promoted well inside the greater Cincinnati area and not at all in other markets outside of the Cincy area. 

Instead of working with some of the parks biggest fans, Choad wants to scurry up and shew Brad away from an interview with the park GM .  But at least he didn't want to try and grab a selfie with the park GM!

The chaperone policy, even if directed by corporate, could have been spun in a way to drive attendance if we had a good wordsmith doing his job. Instead, it was silence.  Maybe Choad was too busy snapping selfies with security?

Because he is either not doing his job, or does not know how to do his job, he should be at the quarterly report for his role in the horrible attendance numbers that will be reported.  I don't think he will want to take selfies with the unit holders!

Dude, it was marketed well.

Can everyone stop picking on Chad? Everyone is fixated on blaming him for stuff that he had nothing to do with.

Adventure Port was marketed well. Did anyone else get the flyers mailed to them describing the new rides.

[IBEW_Sparky]

9 hours ago, chad_1138 said:

^and I am strongly considering them not having my money after this season.  They have every season since 2016.

This right here, I think Ive finally gotten to where I really wouldnt miss having it, I can find other things to do.

[BeeastFarmer]

9 minutes ago, Imperial79 said:

I don’t think it’s Chad that’s the problem, Disney, Universal and others are having trouble too with attendance, so it’s not just KI or Cedar Fair, I think it’s the weather, wildfires and rude guests/chaperone policy. I’ve read the last few days that Knotts has been packed, so hopefully things are returning to normal there. Anyone remember how the park was during the 2008 recession, how they cut anything back during it? 

 But Disney and universal have other businesses in their portfolio to soften that blow.  Cedar Fair and their peer group don't. 

I do think that a competent Communication Director would be a major part of the solution in regards to weather, wildfire smoke and the other issues you mention:

Get guests in the turnstiles to enjoy world class indoor shows during this heat and haze.  We acknowledge that things are challenging with behavior today, that's why we have implemented the chaperone policy and publicize our security number. We want everyone to have a safe, good time....

I'm no wordsmith, but that is the job of one...to turn a negative into a positive and get more people in the park.  When your #1 guy isn't doing anything to drive attendance 

[robintodd]

I think this is just a sign of the times.  I've noticed short lines on Diamondback on the web cams early in the days.  Remember they raised the cheapest price of a gold pass from 99 to 120 last year.  I think this price point proved to be where some people decided not to renew or buy a gold pass.  This in turn with the presige pass not selling as well as they expected (the VIP area's are almost wasted space it seems as I don't notice alot of people in them). 

That on top of it seems the entire amusement industry is experiencing lower numbers.  Remember it's not just Disney in Florida, but also Universal that is experiencing a downturn in attendance.  We are entering a post pandemic world where more and more local options are available.  Disney and KI were also bolstered by a 50th anniversary season which would naturally increase attendance.  

Looks like the 24 seat SolSpin was the right call

I think we may see Gold Passes on sale for 110 this year early promo price to try and get revenues up a little and a small increase in the annual meal plan.

Either way, after the extra year they gave us during COVID, I'm standing by Cedar Fair and will continue to buy my passess and meal plans.  That move by the park impressed me and I still find it a great value.

It's just a though, y'all have a good day.

[KI Guy]

On 7/15/2023 at 7:37 AM, BeeastFarmer said:

If only we had a competent Communication Director who could have, well, communicated about Adventure Port. Yes, it might have been last minute.  Yes, it might have been delayed.  But overall it was a great overhaul. But, besides social media posts, it was not promoted well inside the greater Cincinnati area and not at all in other markets outside of the Cincy area. 

Remember that within the scope of Kings Island new attractions,  Adventure Point is a modest addition.

A less expensive addition will have less marketing hype/promotional dollars attached to it. This is because modest additions bring in a modest amount of additional money or just maintain the baseline revenue.

Similarly, even with so called "free marketing" in social media, they would want to promote but not overhype to the point of disappointment. People know when they're being "over-sold" on something. A modest addition simply won't generate the buzz of a major one.

To KICentral (largely local) superfans a couple flat rides and some additional theming can be a big deal. To someone who normally comes once or twice a year they might not be inclined to make a trip if they live two hours away and money is tighter that year.

There are up and downs in the industry and limits to how far promotion can go. For those reasons blame can't rest squarely on one guy's shoulders.

[disco2000]

12 hours ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

If Nick's ride op source is correct, is the cuts because money is not rolling in this season as much as they wanted? Have we seen the gate prices drop because of this?

 

Don't forget about the Bring a Friend Free promotion they did as a last ditch effort to try to bump up Q2 results.

 

Well based on this tweet, KI is fully staffed with a waitlist, so the cuts are not due to staffing issues:

 

Let's do some quick math - remember that in the annual report, they noted that "In 2022, we sold a record 3.2 million season passes and generated more than $450 million in revenues from our suite of season-pass products, including all-season dining and all-season beverage....Operating costs and expenses for 2022 totaled $1.29 billion"

So lets assume that each of the 3.2 million passes were all $100, that is $320,000,000 + $450,000,000 in pass add-ons = $770,000,000.  So that leaves $520,000,000 that needs to be made up in resort revenue, single day entry, food and drink purchases outside of the season pass add-ons, and merch.

Now we know that isn't the case due to Platinum and Prestige Pass prices, so the total revenue from pass sales alone is somewhere between $320,000,000 and $640,000,000 if everyone bought a platinum pass at $200.  

So that means it is somewhere between $200,000,000 to $520,000,000 that they need to make up in resort revenue, single day entry, company outings, food and drink purchases outside of the season pass add-ons, and merch.  As a perspective, last year they made $213,000,000 in out of park revenue, so that further brings down how much they need to generate from the other sources.

And this doesn't take into account all of the season passess and add-ons sold this year, so that would bring that number down more.

Granted that is still a chunk of change LOL.  So if as a chain they are really that far behind on non-season pass related revenue, then maybe it is showing that they cannot sustain the season pass model of operation without significant changes in the model (increase prices to close that gap or decrease prices to sell more passes to decrease that gap).

How many of these record number of season passes sold would have instead been a single day entry that would have spent more as a single day guest than they did with their pass?

If they are not careful, all these cuts will decrease the number of people purchasing passes for the following year.

While it is true that some thought went into which ones to cut to minimize the appearance of cuts and impacts to the guests, those cuts do impact guests and will cause some to not renew - but what is that number and it is less than the savings by the cuts?

Even with all the cuts, we will see some discussion here and other social media, but to the majority of the guests, it really won't be an impact.  Here will be the typical guest:

• Shows up to Racer and only one train running - "dang buddy I guess we can't race" and they ride the single train op and have fun and continue about their day not thinking twice about it.
• Shows up at WindSeeker and not open in morning - "oh I guess they had trouble this morning".
• Shows up at WindSeeker at 9:05pm - "I guess they have to shut it early for fireworks and drones."
• Shows up to Planet Snoopy and sees X ride down -"thats okay mommy" and darts off to an operating ride.

So end of year the board will be sitting around and be like "look at all the hours we cut and didn't get much pushback" and that is how we see reduced hours next year.  Mon-Thurs 8 or 9pm closes with no fireworks those nights is probably on the table.  Other parks have gone down that path.  Now one could argue maybe that is why revenue is down....

And that is why the Board and CEO get paid the big bucks to play the what-if games.

[johnjniehaus]

4 hours ago, gforce1994 said:

Adventure Port was marketed well. Did anyone else get the flyers mailed to them describing the new rides.

I never got a flyer and I've been a pass holder since 2011. I can't say I watch much TV so maybe they've had commercial spots for it but I can say I drive a lot and I haven't seen any billboard ads for Adventure Port. Anyone in my family/friends group didn't know that Kings Island had anything new for this year until I told them. 

 

5 hours ago, BoddaH1994 said:

Calling it now. 9:00 closes Su-Thu next year. Fireworks Fridays and Saturdays. 

As for this, I will be the one contacting park management and getting a t-shirt made for public protest at the park if fireworks are cut. I think there's a way to possibly cut production costs of the show itself by possibly shortening the show but axing it on weekdays entirely will not sit well with me. Once again, taking away park tradition is a big no no in my book. Also Kings Island is amazing for night rides and a 9pm close basically would coincide with dusk during the summer so I guess all the night ride fans will have to wait in the weekend lines to get their treasured night rides in. Comes back to the pay more get less deal that is unfortunately spreading across the amusement park industry. 

 

4 hours ago, robintodd said:

Either way, after the extra year they gave us during COVID, I'm standing by Cedar Fair and will continue to buy my passess and meal plans.  That move by the park impressed me and I still find it a great value.

I'm still with you that Cedar Fair went above and beyond with the pandemic deal giving out the free year to pass holders. I still think very highly of Cedar Fair and I'm very grateful they did that for us and also that they have managed Kings Island pretty well through the years. However, I would like to see them uphold their gold standard in the industry by not making budget cuts resulting in closed rides and less hours. I mean Cedar Fair claims to be better than six flags (they even joke about it during winterfest shows) so if their goal is to be better than six flags, maybe they shouldn't be acting like six flags. 

[SonofBaconator]

3 hours ago, disco2000 said:

Well based on this tweet, KI is fully staffed with a waitlist, so the cuts are not due to staffing issues:

Well if the park comes out and says it’s due to staffing, we know that’s a lie

[BeeastFarmer]

3 hours ago, KI Guy said:

Remember within the scope of Kings Island new attractions Adventure Point is a modest addition.

A less expensive addition will have less marketing hype/promotional dollars attached to it. This is because modest additions bring in a modest amount of additional money or just maintain the baseline revenue.

Similarly even with so called "free marketing" in social media they would want to promote, but not overhype to the point of disappointment. People know when they're being "over-sold" on something. A modest addition simply won't generate the buzz of a major one.

To KICentral (largely local) superfans a couple flat rides and some additional theming can be a big deal. To someone who normally comes once or twice a year they might not be inclined to make a trip if they live two hours away and money is tighter that year.

There are up in downs in the industry and limits to how far promotion can go so blame can't rest squarely on one guy's shoulders.

Antique Autos were a modest investment. Besides enthusiasts, many people loved it.  And I got a flyer about it in the mail.  It pulled the nostalgia string. Much like the 2 new flats harken back to nostalgia.  The whole thing was bungled from Choads end. When attendance started to slip, he should have been reaching out to markets away from Cincinnati to bring people in. These are the once a summer people who will spend money and some will stay at places like camp cedar...but because of that fiasco, Cedar Fair will not make a dime.

And about overhyping...a good campaign is not just about what's new, but it's about your favorites. Granny might like to come watch the Enterprise and barrels to think back, but she also might want to take a ride on the flume and enjoy the view from the tower.

So while Choad is not responsible for lowered attendance directly, he bares a large burden because he is not getting the word out there.

[CoasterJack]

I see two sides to this...

 

On one side, it is disappointing not getting the "full experience" with a racing racer, water rides opening later, etc. Additionally, those whose hours are cut are potentially upset. Though we don't know all the details, they could potentially move some of those workers cut to other positions or rides for the time being. For example, an extra station worker or two at the more popular rides. I get it's a slippery slope of not cutting too much without sacrificing too much of the experience.

 

On the otherhand, I get that they're also trying to use our money wisely. As someone said above, Cedar Fair has always played conservatively when it comes to spending money. They maintain good parks with good infrastructure, but you don't usually see them going on a mass spending spree. Well maybe the Paramount Parks purchase was rather large, but I would say that's been a good investment. What I'm trying to say is I also understand the business side. They want to pay down debt, while still being able to contribute towards new additions and experiences. As enthusiasts, we might not get everything we want. While I would love a huge $30 million dollar coaster every two years, I wouldn't want that to lead to our park being sold off or going under due to overspending (such as Six Flags Ohio).

 

I also understand that things have been rather concerning in the industry on the upcoming condition of the economy. I don't blame them too much for wanting to stay prepared to be able to weather another financial recession if needed. That is their job after all. As the park guest, it's disappointing that I have to wait an extra hour or two for my ride to open, but if that means the park can starve off additional entertainment cuts, ride closures, and better survive an attendance/spending decline, then I'm here for it. 

 

Also as a side note, it's been a rough summer season. I help with some pool mechanics at a local pool, and while June started out strong, it's been dead the past few weeks with so many pop-up storms, cloudy days, or scorching days, I could definitely see how attendance could be affected by the weather in addition to other circumstances. Just a though...

[BeeastFarmer]

All I know is that each day I have been this year, it's not been busy the vast majority.  We all love those rain days when the park is empty, but that is not sustainable. 

Generally, addition is better than subtraction.  So if (insert reason here) Kings Island is down by 20000 guests the week of June 7, what can we do immediately to get attendance up?  What can we plan for the next few weeks?  How can we reach more people with Grand Carnivale?  That's the job of an effective Communication Director. 

Don has not said if he retired, moved to a job with Buc-Ees, or anything.  That's his prerogative.  But it reeks of corporate jealousy and sabotage.  Who's next? Mike Koontz?  I'm not saying people are throwing others under the bus, but when times are bad, people will do bad things.

[Orion-XL200]

12 hours ago, gforce1994 said:

Dude, it was marketed well.

Can everyone stop picking on Chad? Everyone is fixated on blaming him for stuff that he had nothing to do.

Adventure Port was marketed well. Did anyone else get the flyers mailed to them describing the new rides.

I've had passes for Kings Island for years and never received the flyer. 

Where were the updates from the park when Adventure Port was not ready? There were a lot of angry people opening weekend and on until the rides opened. Park was radio silent on it...that is a Chad thing. He didn't communicate. He was too busy tweeting to other parks saying that their rides looked like fun. Who does that? Failure to communicate. 
__________

 

There are definitely budget cuts going around. Look at the ride platforms...Diamondback - sometimes has 3 or 4 ride ops on the platform, when it is designed to run with 6.  There was to be an additional Peanuts show this year....employees found out a few weeks before opening that it would not be happening due to budget cuts. 

[Tr0y]

8 hours ago, johnjniehaus said:

As for this, I will be the one contacting park management and getting a t-shirt made for public protest at the park if fireworks are cut. I think there's a way to possibly cut production costs of the show itself by possibly shortening the show but axing it on weekdays entirely will not sit well with me. Once again, taking away park tradition is a big no no in my book. Also Kings Island is amazing for night rides and a 9pm close basically would coincide with dusk during the summer so I guess all the night ride fans will have to wait in the weekend lines to get their treasured night rides in. Comes back to the pay more get less deal that is unfortunately spreading across the amusement park industry. 

I can definitely see the park cutting fireworks other than on weekends and holidays and sticking with a drone show. From what I’ve heard from most people that’s all they talk about during the night shows.

[FUN&ONLY!]

20 minutes ago, Tr0y said:

I can definitely see the park cutting fireworks other than on weekends and holidays and sticking with a drone show. From what I’ve heard from most people that’s all they talk about during the night shows.

I think Kings Island is aware of how important the 10:00 PM closes are during the summer as well as the nightly fireworks show. I think the park realized this in 2020 when the park was dead during the 7:00 PM closures but decently crowded when they made the switch to 10:00 PM closures.

The budget cuts are quite sad to see. Luckily, they have not been too noticeable so far, but they are not invisible. I really hope Cedar Fair has a strong finish to this year so that things can return to normal next summer operationally speaking. I also hope that Winterfest is not affected too much.

[Captain Nemo]

Kings Island???

 

Sorry never heard of it